To think that a miscarriage shouldn't count as sickness absence from work...

[lurcherlover]

...because pregnancy complications don't, do they? You can be off for weeks with HG etc and it doesn't go on your absence record. So why does miscarriage?

The background to this is that I had tonsillitis (a recurrent problem for me) in Jan and was off for 2 days. Then in May I had a missed mc (only found out at the dating scan) and subsequently an ERPC. I was signed off for a fortnight. On my return to work ( I'm a teacher) I found a lovely letter telling me that two periods of sickness absence within 6 months triggers "attendance concerns" and that I had to attend a meeting with someone from HR, to which I could take a union rep if I wished (jeez, thanks). I was really upset and told the head I couldn't go to this meeting (what was there to be said? Did they really think I wanted to be off for a fortnight recovering from a miscarriage?) in the end the meeting didnt happen but the miscarriage still counts as a period of sickness absence.

I've now got tonsillitis again (luckily Weds is my day off) and have just been to the dr and prescribed antibiotics. She told me to take the rest of the week off, but I feel I can't (much as I should) as I will get another bloody letter and a meeting when I go back and I'm really worried my sickness record looks bad. If it wasn't for the mc I wouldn't get a letter as it's 2 episodes of sickness in 6 months that triggers it and I was last off in Jan. AIBU to think classing a mc as sickness absence is unfair? And what do I do about this week?

I lost my baby at 23 weeks and I've been off work for 6 weeks now. According to the SANDS website:

'Sick Leave. A miscarriage is a pregnancy-related sickness. Your employer
must not dismiss or treat you less favourably because you have a
pregnancy-related sickness, even if you have only just started working there.
The time you have off will not count towards your sickness record (though
any sick pay you get will be counted) and is not time-limited. You need to
get a Fit note (previously called a Sick note) from your GP.'

I don't really see the problem. You go to the meeting, you explain your very valid reason for being off, they will forget about it, job done.

This is dreadful Lurcherlover! I'm so sorry that you are being put through this on top of trying to cope with a mc.

Your employers should use some discretion here. You are a person not a number!

I had a mc after 7 years of fertility problems and IVF and was in hospital for a week followed by two weeks at home to recover ( signed off by the hospital)

When I returned to work I was still very raw and just tried my best to carry on as if every thing was fine and avoided talking to anyone about what had happened as I would just get too upset.

If my employers had called me in for a meeting with HR they would have had a very distraught grieving women on their hands who probably wouldn't have been able to speak for sobbing.

My employers were not the most compassionate but even they wouldn't have stooped so low.

I hope it all works out ok for you in the end.

lurcher: "Hackman, I'm glad you found it so easy to return to work quickly. I didn't - I had a horrendous time in hospital waiting for the ERPC to be done, then was an emotional wreck afterwards. I'm not going to feel bad about having that time off. I needed it."

I didn't find it easy. I found it hard. I did it anyway. But obviously I'm very sorry you had such a difficult time.

As for WateryFowls and her comment "I'm glad someone pulled Hackmum up on that as I was just about to" - why? I asked a perfectly straightforward question, which I made clear wasn't intended in a nasty way. I'm not sure exactly why other people are having histrionics on the OP's behalf.

Sorry mistyped. 'shouldn't be either'

I had 3 mc in a row end ended up referred to occupational health for 'menstral problems' by my vile boss (she did it in a very 'hahaha now your in trouble way' ...backfired on her as I was 6 weeks pg when i went and they hit the roof because I hadn;t had a pregnancy H+S assessment or anything - she left not long after

but sadly that is the rule - I am on 'special measures' for my absence now as I have had 3 days sick in 12 months ...one day each time so classed as 3 periods of sickness - they are silly rules

It would be distressing to suffer a mc and then return to work to see it logged as 'pregancy related'.

I experienced similar OP and I worked in the ante natal unit.

I had a day 'off sick' whilst in A&E with ? ectopic - then back to work.

A week later I had an ERPC and went back to work within a couple of days feeling lousy.

Anaemic and tired my cough and cold became bronchitis and I was off for a week.

3 episodes of sickness and I was told I was 'lucky' to not be called into HR.....

I've never forgotten that discussion. Heartless bitch. I went on to have further miscarriages and back to working with pregnant happy ladies. No thought from my bosses ever of the effect on me

FWIW I think a mc should be classed as sickness.

hackmum - if you'd read the OP properly (or had since apologised for not reading it properly) then I might revise my opinion.

Finding out you've miscarried when you go for your dating scan is dreadful. You're all ready to tell people your great news and get given your Bounty bag and then you find out your baby died several weeks previously. Your body thinks it's still pregnant but instead, you've been walking around with a dead baby inside you for the last few weeks.

Actually I don't think it does count as sick, I'm nhs and mc is not sick, its pregnancy related. Check with ur contract/union/hr if u r right, I suggest a letter to HOUR sayin u want It removed and no more silly letters about meetings.

It does show when u apply for a job, and attendance meetings can be used in deciding redundancy/redeployment

Could not read and not reply, so sorry for what happened and that your school are not handling this very well. I am a teacher and union rep and I had a mc and was signed off for 2 weeks too.

At no point was my mc classed as sick leave, i was given compassionate leave and it did not go on my record. As teachers we do worry about our sick leave rate since something like tonsillitis or a throat infection can make our job impossible and means we could have a quite a few incidents of sick leave, so I can understand your worry about it being on your record.

I was signed off by the hospital too but my head just gave me compassionate leave. I would def have a word with the head they could well say its sick leave but technically you can also say it is compassionate leave too. It sounds as though they've not thought this through.

Def take time off and make sure you are rested and then tackle this. Good Luck and take time to recover

I'm a teacher and it's just an automated process. Where I work, they say it's so that they can support you.

Go to the meeting and explain; I'm sure they'll be mortified that you're so upset.

Don't forget there are probably people there who really do take the piss and are regularly off on a Monday with flu but back on Tuesday in perfect health, etc.

Sorry to hear about your miscarriage.

Some of the differences in how the absence is handled may depend on whether you have formally informed manager/HR of the preg before it is lost (MatB form?).

At our work absences automatically trigger a 'chat' with the line manager who has to complete a form. However, their attitude is that it is to deter the piss-takers but support the genuinely ill (by checking they are fit to return or if they need any additional support or time off for follow up doctors appointments etc).

Hope you are feeling better soon.

I'm really sorry you're experiencing this, OP.

I have just had my 2nd m/c in 12 months & have had a total of 8 weeks off due to this - a combination of missed miscarriage, molar pregnancy,delays for surgery, 2 ERPC's & an emotional wreck that have resulted in my GP signing me off for both m/c.

I work for the NHS & have triggered the absence policy through the amount of time I've been signed off. I too have a meeting with my line manager to discuss my absence, as I did last time.

It's just a formality: am I ok to be back at work, are there any client groups I'll find difficult (normally do pre-pregnancy & obstetric clinics), do I need time off for hospital appts?

It shouldn't be anything more than that for you either. I hope it goes well.

And I'm pretty disgusted about some of the responses on this thread - some people are clearly missing the empathy gene.

Hi, I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if I'm repeating someone else, but the Equality and Human Rights Commission advises that miscarriage should be treated as pregnancy-related sickness (so it should be recorded, but not counted towards any attendance-based proceedings.

EHRC guidelines

I hope this gives you some 'ammunition', as it were. Personally I would agree to the meeting, it gives you the opportunity to state your case.

So sorry for your loss

FWIW I think it should be classed as compassionate leave.

Sorry for your loss. Agree it should be compassionate leave. Although I think it was treated as sick when I had my missed miscarriage. In my case I gort myself signed off for 2 weeks but subsquently decided not to return to work.
Physically i was fine but emotionally not so.

Fireandashes others have said it but for some reason noone is listening!
[Mutters not sick leave, not compassionate leave]

fireandashes, thanks very much for that link. I have emailed it to HR and asked them to clarify what my absence has been recorded as, so that I can make sure it's not been classed as normal sickness but has been classed as pregnancy-related (FWIW - it doesn't hurt to think of it as that, as an earlier poster suggested it might - it hurts more that when you're pregnant you're protected against everything, but as soon as your pregnancy fails you're on your own )

Thanks again for your messages of support everyone. I feel a lot better about the whole situation now I know where I stand legally. I wish I'd known all this 2 months ago when I got the letter - I could've gone to that meeting fully informed of my rights. Should've consulted the knowledge of mumsnet then...

Strange about the pregnancy related absence not counting. My colleague (we work in the NHS) is on sickness review for having so much time off for HG

Lurcher, so very sorry for your loss - I've been there twice and it's awful. I'm really sorry too that work is adding to your stress when there is no need for them to.

I can't really add anything other than what has already been added. I worked for HMRC and my absences relating to my mc's were classed as pregnancy-related sickness and did not count toward sick pay limits or any 'trigger points' for disciplinary action. The first time I was involved in a car crash at the same time as the mc (I'll never know if the two were related but I felt like the unluckiest person in the world) and I was off for three weeks. When I went back to work I lasted two weeks before having what I now recognise as a breakdown. I don't remember much of it but at one point I convinced myself I was dying and everyone was too afraid to tell me the truth :( Not nice at all. I was off for eight weeks and my manager counted it as an extension of the earlier leave. My second mc was later in the pregnancy and more complicated, I was off for two months as that's how long it took me to physically recover never mind mentally. Again this was recorded as pregnancy related absence.

Definitely speak to HR and your union rep, if you have one (if you don't then ACAS should be able to offer advice). IIRC you cannot be disciplined for time off relating to miscarriage as it contravenes discrimination rules. I hope you get the situation resolved soon.

FutTheShuckUp, your colleague should contact the union and/or HR as absences during pregnancy that are related to the pregnancy (which would include HG) cannot be counted towards disciplinary proceedings. I'm at a tribunal next week for a very similar issue.

prettyfly, I am sorry for your loss. My twin daughters were born at 23+5 and although they were both born alive, sadly we lost them both at 15 minutes and 9 days respectively. I hope you can find some way to cope.

Lurcher Lover, I am so sorry this has happened to you and now you are having these problems with your owkr. The paragraph prettyfly posted up the thread is from the SANDS website and you might find this helpful:

www.uk-sands.org/Support/Rights-and-benefits.html

Hmm. Well, I'm the HR lady you might see. I do think mc is sickness absence and I also think pregnancy related absence is sickness absence. Both are covered by sick pay and the pg related sickness absence is also covered by sick pay up until 36 weeks.

Absence: sickness, compassionate, pg related, parental should be dealt with on a case by case basis and the meetings are often a way of identifying what support you should receive. Such meetings also deal with those who are taking the mick and take resources away from those in need whom we really should be supporting as valued employees through good times and bad.

If you had been referred to me I probably would have said, the absences are covered by medical certs and I don't have a problem with them. However, would you like to come and see me and we can have a chat about support and what we can do to support you.

One of my ladies, for whom I have acted as mediator with her managers for the last three years, due to miscarriage related absences has just sent me a picture of her little girl, born two weeks ago. Four miscarriages, two courses of IVF, a lot of informal chats, a lot of encouragement, a lot of thumbs up and nods in corridors and hugs and tears and private cuppas in my own time. It's the good part of the job - supporting people so they manage to carry on and do their job through the bad times.