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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that a miscarriage shouldn't count as sickness absence from work...

166 replies

lurcherlover · 04/07/2012 15:05

...because pregnancy complications don't, do they? You can be off for weeks with HG etc and it doesn't go on your absence record. So why does miscarriage?

The background to this is that I had tonsillitis (a recurrent problem for me) in Jan and was off for 2 days. Then in May I had a missed mc (only found out at the dating scan) and subsequently an ERPC. I was signed off for a fortnight. On my return to work ( I'm a teacher) I found a lovely letter telling me that two periods of sickness absence within 6 months triggers "attendance concerns" and that I had to attend a meeting with someone from HR, to which I could take a union rep if I wished (jeez, thanks). I was really upset and told the head I couldn't go to this meeting (what was there to be said? Did they really think I wanted to be off for a fortnight recovering from a miscarriage?) in the end the meeting didnt happen but the miscarriage still counts as a period of sickness absence.

I've now got tonsillitis again (luckily Weds is my day off) and have just been to the dr and prescribed antibiotics. She told me to take the rest of the week off, but I feel I can't (much as I should) as I will get another bloody letter and a meeting when I go back and I'm really worried my sickness record looks bad. If it wasn't for the mc I wouldn't get a letter as it's 2 episodes of sickness in 6 months that triggers it and I was last off in Jan. AIBU to think classing a mc as sickness absence is unfair? And what do I do about this week?

OP posts:
igggi · 04/07/2012 15:59

Hackmum you do indeed sound like a bastard. Glad it was nice and simple for you. To give you one example of why someone might be off for 2 weeks (and I could give you a few) I once had pain and bleeding and was all set for a next day ERPC (literally had my bag packed) but the scan showed a slow, but present heartbeat. Not enough to give any real hope, but too much for a erpc obviously. Funnily enough in the week I had to wait for the rescan, I didn't feel up to teaching other people's children as I waited for mine to die inside me.
I can't believe we are into competitive recovery now Hmm

Cheriefroufrou · 04/07/2012 16:01

I work for the NHS and miscarriages are definitely marked as sickness days at work. I know people who have been called in because they've had 3 miscarriages closeish together and it flaged up as multiple episodes of sickness

Cloudbase · 04/07/2012 16:04

Hi, So sorry for your loss.

I used to work in HR and I think the problem is that a lot of Managers don't properly explain things to their staff!

The meeting isn't a disciplinary, it's a sickness absence review.
Don't worry about all the letters and meeting - this is, as others have explained, documentation that most employers have to fill in - usually at a trigger point, which allows them to continue to pay your sick pay.

The Union Rep reference is a legal requirement, not a threat.

A lot of stress and upset could be avoided if managers had the forethought to just say to their employees "This isn't a disciplinary, it's a meeting that we have to have to look at your recent sickness. It's just to make sure everything's alright, and we can support you if you need it and make plans to keep the service running if we need to".

Of course some people abuse the system, but most don't to be honest.

I used to work in HR and am a few years out of date, but iirc, UK employment law states that a MC after 24 weeks is classed as a stillbirth and standard Mat leave requirement kick in. Therefore, most companies (in lieu of further guidance) usually have to manage a MC under 24 weeks under existing sickness policies.

I agree that it's insensitive and should be changed, but it's not an intentional on the part of your employer - unfortunately they are acting under the only guidelines they have.

As for this week? Follow your doctors advice. Get a sick note (explain your situation to your GP if need be and I'm sure they'll help).

Don't make your health worse by struggling in when you shouldn't because of this policy - you need to take care of yourself and if you don't rest and get well when you should, you risk making yourself worse and ending up taking more time off work! You know you are not abusing the system, and actually, I'm sure they do too. I know how hard it is for teachers to be off (DM and DSIL are both primary school teachers) but you can't help this.

Please take care of yourself!

igggi · 04/07/2012 16:05

here we go
(EHRC link)

igggi · 04/07/2012 16:07

Thanks mummytokatie I was quite a bit slower than you!
It does sound like a lot of firms are not following this, however.

itdoesnthurttohavemanners · 04/07/2012 16:11

I can't get over some of the insensitive comments made on this. :(

I would echo the OP - some of you (lucky) people have clearly never experienced the horrific trauma of a miscarriage.

OP - I had 2 weeks off after my late mc last year. My work were extremely sympathetic. TBH..I needed more than 2 weeks mentally, but also knew that staying off wasn't going to make the situation un-do itself.

I'm so sorry you had to go through this. Clearly it's just a case of, those are the rules, but you would hope in this day and age that more sensitivity would be paid to such matters.

fwiw to those ignorant posters, having a mc at 17 weeks is completely completely different to missing a period and then bleeding 3 weeks later..which clearly some of you think ALL miscarriages are...don't assume...

LittleWhiteWolf · 04/07/2012 16:11

I had a fornight off last year for the same (mmc then ERPC) and that was classed as pregnancy related, rather than just sickness. My manager did ask me what I wanted as she wasn't sure "I wanted anyone to know". I said I'd rather people in HR (far, far away who I've never met) than have to worry about triggering any sickness concerns.

Mintyy · 04/07/2012 16:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

lurcherlover · 04/07/2012 16:12

Hackman, I'm glad you found it so easy to return to work quickly. I didn't - I had a horrendous time in hospital waiting for the ERPC to be done, then was an emotional wreck afterwards. I'm not going to feel bad about having that time off. I needed it.

Thanks to everyone for your kind comments and support. I am definitely going to be speaking to HR about all this.

OP posts:
Theas18 · 04/07/2012 16:12

Sad but procedures is procedures.... it IS sick leave. If your contract states that 2 periods sick in 6 months means a HR meeting that is what it means. It may well be a contractual obligation to have one for you.

However (and I'm an employer) that meeting with me would be a coffee, a hand hold and sympathetic ear. It wouldn't be " you have a terrible record I'll never forgive you" sort of a meeting(- no those wouldn't be my actual words-) if you had ,say a bad back coinciding with all the good footy matches, or a "terrible migraine" on several mondays, when I was fully aware you'd been on the lash with your mates the weekend before !)

DowagersHump · 04/07/2012 16:21

Hackmum - if you read the OP, you will see that the OP had a missed miscarriage which she found out about at the dating scan.

FWIW, I also found out that way, it took another five days before I could be scanned again, then another week before I could be fitted in for an ERPC. Which is surgery, in case you were unaware. I was off work for nearly a month because I started to miscarry before my ERPC. And a miscarriage at 13-14 weeks is a really traumatic thing. I hope you don't have management responsibility - you don't have a lot of compassion.

lurcher - I would accept that it's part of the process in your job and that they are going through the motions. You have been legitimately signed off by a doctor on all occasions - sickness policy was, I thought, about targeting individuals who were faking illness. Sorry for your loss and I also second going to see if you can get your tonsils taken out

BupcakesandCunting · 04/07/2012 16:26

"you are being fucking unreasonable and then some ! as regards this wk?"

I think you are being fucking unreasonable and then some with regards to your spelling/grammar/abysmal text speak but there we have it.

igggi · 04/07/2012 16:30

I wonder if the posters continuing to say "it is sick leave" understand what others mean by saying "absence due to pg complications". In both cases you are, literally, "sick", but the point here is that mc legally has to be classed as absence due to pg complications. I imagine prior to the Equality Act 2010 it may have been different.

Moominsarescary · 04/07/2012 16:41

With my first mc I was off for two weeks before I even had the surgery, my 2nd I had a week off.

My 3rd was at 20 weeks and luckily I wasn't working at the time. All mc are different some people have more complications than others.

Some people on this thread have no fucking compassion (maybelate I'm looking at you)

igggi · 04/07/2012 16:52

NICE currently has plans (out for consultation - see mumsnet campaign pages) that would make expectant mc the default position - ie when mc is confirmed by a scan, you are sent away for two weeks to see if it happens on its own, before being given other options. So I would expect a lot of longer absences from work if this comes in.

hev2010 · 04/07/2012 16:57

I'm a teacher and my miscarriage was recorded as compassionate leave. It isn't an illness, I'm totally with you on that.

geegee888 · 04/07/2012 17:05

You had a fortnight and then 2 days off sick, and got called into a meeting to discuss it?! YANBU. How harsh your workplace must be.

I understand the reasoning behind the classification of miscarriages as sick leave, but YANBU in thinking the principle behind it unfair. It seems discriminatory, as men can't get pregnant.

igggi · 04/07/2012 17:09

Geegee - it is not sick leave.
Bangs head.

DontKnowWhatToDoo · 04/07/2012 17:29

KellyElly Unfortunately I am serious - worst part is, along with a few others, I worked in the NHS too.
My boss was just generally vile - she had the nerve to ring me only a few hours after I'd had the D&C to ask when I would be back at work. I understand that she needed to know, but she didn't just 'slip' it in, it was a straight up 'Right, now that's over with, when are you going to be back?'
I took great pleasure in handing my notice in when she called me into a meeting to have a go at me. Haven't been back since! Grin

MrsHoarder · 04/07/2012 17:34

OP: I had a (non-pregnancy related) period of 6 weeks off work. On my first day back at work, my manager scheduled a formal meeting for as soon as he was free, and offered me the opportunity to take a union rep (this is a standard legal requirement if you are having any discussion to do with absences: the law is a blunt tool and you don't have to take a union rep if you don't feel you will need one).

He then sat me down with a cup of tea, asked how my recovery was going and organised for taxis to be paid to bring me to/from work for a couple of weeks whilst I recovered fully.

So don't worry too much about the formal meeting. If your manager is a decent sort, then its likely to just be a chat to ensure that everything is ok and to offer any reasonable help that they can.

Viviennemary · 04/07/2012 17:41

If pregnancy related sickness isn't counted then surely sickness relating to a miscarriage should be either. And I'm surprised that it is. Very sorry about your miscarriage. Thanks

CherryBlossom27 · 04/07/2012 17:42

Hi OP, sorry to hear about your mc.

To my mind this is unfair and all your absences have been genuine and signed off by dr so I don't think they can put you on disciplinary or anything like that, its probably an automatic trigger on the system and they have to tick some boxes on a form. Not nice to be called in to explain to (probably a stranger) about something so personal though.

WateryFowls · 04/07/2012 17:44

I'm glad someone pulled Hackmum up on that as I was just about to. There are some shocking comments on here. Just shows that more information is needed because people still don't understand.

And yes, it should be treated in the same way as any other pregnancy related condition. Sorry for your loss OP.

minipie · 04/07/2012 17:54

YANBU. Surely it should only be sick leave for the time spent in hospital and physically recovering - since that's the period you are physically out of action for iyswim - and the rest should be (deserved) compassionate leave?

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