to wonder why any American's are against Obamacare?

[lowfatiscrap12]

Please, if you're an American, or if you're not American, tell me.
It's driving me insane.
What's wrong with proper healthcare for everyone?
I've got a few American's on Facebook, who happen to live in trailers, so not wealthy people, and you'd imagine they'd be more supportive of Obamacare than anyone.
I don't get it.
What's the problem?
Why would anyone want to keep the current system where one illness can bankrupt a family?

Very many disabled people, if they are not able to work full-time, work in volunteer roles. Many are bringing up children. Many disabled people are, in fact, able to work.

I have mental health problems - thankfully I'm able to work now and hope I'll be able to continue to do so. I would probably be a lot less able to work if I didn't have the support of my mh forum friends, many of whom AREN'T able to work due to mh problems or physical disability. So although they aren't paying taxes, they enable others to do so by providing emotional support.

I've just read the whole thread and didn't realise what sort of healthcare was available in the US. Actually I'm a bit horrified (and probably naive), I didn't realise that you could be bankrupted by illness. And the story of not reattaching a healthy finger cause the guy couldn't afford it .

For all its faults the NHS is brilliant. I have had two babies, one VB one ELCS, in for a total four nights in hospital. I have spent two nights in hospital with DD2 for various illnesses and she was under paediatric care for her first year. All this and all I paid were my national insurance contributions (and if I hadn't then I'd have still received care). Bargain. And the food wasn't even that bad bar the shrivelled up excuse for a baked potatoe I got after DD1 was born.

Actually I'm all for the safety net that national insurance allows, better that than have people suffering without healthcare etc.

I agree that the NHS is not perfect, and take on board your very interesting comments.

I agree, because under the NHS we have to wait for non-urgent treatment, that the NHS can be lacking, and personally i have not had to deal with any chronic conditions, like a previous poster, in my family it has been urgent cancer care etc (operation 3 days after tumour was found etc) so my experience of that on the NHS is limited.

I have known people have to wait 9 months for replacement joint operations, or when my dad who needed neurosurgery to save his ability to walk would have been turfed out of A&E but for the determination and clinical skill of one nurse and woukd be paralysed now. It can be scary.

But i think the alterative woud mean elderly, poor, vulnerable people having to pay to even see their GP, I cannot help but be grateful for our healthcare system. Likewise, when people die from preventable disease in a country as rich as the USA because they cannot afford cheap and effective drugs, it raises moral questions in my mind.

Like I say, really interestng read here, I have learned a lot.

Also agree, you may have to wait 9 months for a non-urgent hip replacement, but it will be done, free of charge, eventually.

If you need life saving or urgent treatment, you will (should - i know some of you have described different experiences) get it.

And, we have the bes of both worlds, because if you can afford it, you can pay privately for you hip/knee if you want to.

I still prefer a sysytem where everyone gets their replacement joint, quickly if you go private, eventually if you wait on NHS, rather than a system where not everyone who needs the surgery will get it because you are an average Joe, struggling to keep head above wat in hard times, or are an elderly or vulnerable member of society.

My teen DD asked me this question last night - she simply cannot understand the mindset of Americans on this issue.

I lived there briefly and think it's a case of "I'm Alright Jack". The US government subsidises Healthcare insurance schemes very heavily (it costs much more per head than NHS)and is as others have stated excellent, most workers do not want that to be diluted.

Also as a more diverse society with a horror of socailism many very much feel that "charity" and social care should be left to churches and projects which many citizens give to very generously in time and money - different mindset.

However, I know may Americans totally trapped in their jobs to keep their healthacre plans and the much coveted "dental cover". They also only get 2 weeks paid holiday a year as standard.

When ther I volunteered with teenage mums - most had absolutely no antenatal care,the most basic deliveries in the "free" hospital and were basically at the mercy of the charity for survival - appalling!

When I said "diverse society " I meant in a individualistic sense

"Disabled people are not a drain on society. The vast majority of disabled people can contribute to society, if not through their working taxes, then in other equally important ways. They may also have already contributed financially to society before they became disabled"

You misunderstood me. I do think disabled people are worthwhile and they do contribute to society. HOWEVER it is having an NHS that makes it possible. Disabled people have financial help to manage their conditions and lead happy lives through the NHS.

"When ther I volunteered with teenage mums - most had absolutely no antenatal care,the most basic deliveries in the "free" hospital and were basically at the mercy of the charity for survival - appalling!"

Also by having an NHS prevents people becoming seriously disabled in the first place. Lets face it having next to no ante natal care can lead to unnecessary disablity. Those feckless teenage mums are forced to look after a disabled child because medical issues were not treated. (Prehaps to make matters worse the teenager got pregnant as a result of rape and was indirectly denied an abortion as she could not cross the picket line of looney "christians").

Despite the theme of my last post, my first sentence sums up my view. I live in the UK and think the NHS is fantastic.

Both my parents are disabled (my mother physically after a work accident when she worked for McDonalds, and my father is mentally ill (severe OCD and anxiety/depression). Both of them worked for years, but my father became mentally ill when he was 32 years old, and my mother got hurt in work when she was 31 years old. They've been claiming benefits since as they cannot work and they've both recieved a lot of NHS care. In the US, they would be suffering a lot more.

My point was only that the NHS is an inherently unfair system. I don't drink, smoke or use drugs. I don't even drink caffeine or eat any junk food. I eat nothing that is processed and my cupboards are full of fresh meat and fish, vegetables and whole grains (rice and spaghetti only, i don't eat bread). I go to the gym 3 times a week and i don't have any particularly dangerous hobbies (i like reading and playing piano!). Over my lifetime, i have been in hospital when i was born, when i've visited relatives and once when i was hit by a car (not my fault). Meanwhile, i pay a lot of tax. It just ISN'T fair. I esspecially feel resentful of the obese dole bums i see queuing outside the giro office eating a McDonalds and smoking a cig whilst tending to their numerous kids that they obviously can't afford to keep.

But... i wouldn't give it up for the world. Whilst i don't agree with the lifestyles of others, and would want to do all i can so that i am not a burden on society, i would never want to see even the worst scum in the world be refused medical treatment. I don't even feel bad that my taxes go towards the medical treatment of horrific criminals in our prisons or towards the field medical treatment of terrorists who attack our troops and are wounded rather than killed in return. I think medical treatment is a basic human right, and i wouldn't deny it of anyone. I actually boast to my american friends that in our country, we don't leave people behind. When we discuss Obamacare, i always say, "Get with the first world, folks".

But it still isn't a fair system, it isn't fair to have to pay for other people's poor health choices. And whilst i'm not extreme as those who think obese over-eaters should be refused medical treatment for weight related illness (they really are people who think this!) and i'm not so extreme to think that smokers should be refused treatment for lung cancer (some people think that too!), i can understand the perspective of Americans who's health treatment is provided by an employer they've worked hard all their lives to woo and who don't want to pay for those who can't even be bothered to work.

CogPsych one of the great strengths of the NHS is that it does not judge what is fair and unfair. It treats human beings whatever mistakes they have made in life.

"But it still isn't a fair system, it isn't fair to have to pay for other people's poor health choices."

Hopefully Obamacare would include a lot of education to improve people's "choices".

"A doctor should be giving you the most appropriate treatment, not trying to keep costs down" from earlier in this thread... sorry but, that's precisely what happens on the NHS. I was sent away three times by my GP when I had a DVT in my leg. Huge, swollen leg, lots of pain, but since I fit none of the risk categories, he didn't even want to test for it. I had to force the issue in the end. A simple little blood test is all I needed, and he (they, as I saw several of them in the same practice) were willing to risk my health for the price of a blood test.

Stories from around the UK will all vary in their praise of the NHS. I'm in the poorer part of the county I live in, and thus, am not eligible for the same tests/scans which friends in the southern part of the country have covered by their NHS. Thankfully, we have the money to get private healthcare, should there come a day when we might need it. But let's not pretend like everyone is treated equally under the NHS in this country.

The US system is terrible and it needs fixing. This is one step in the right direction (making it illegal for insurance companies to refuse coverage to those with pre-existing conditions) but as many have said before me, it's not the right answer. Niceguy2 summed up the political aspects well; this bill is the result of pandering to both the Republicans, and the insurance company lobby, which is huge. If an American says they don't support Obamacare, don't assume they're not in favour of an NHS-type solution. Obamacare is nothing like the NHS.

And yes I voted for Obama and I like him, for whatever that is worth. Just putting that out there as so many people seem to think he spawned from nowhere, as "all Americans" seem to feel this way or that, according to some in this thread. I am, however, critical of the way Democrats pander to Republicans in these situations, so if I criticise him, it's because I expect more from him. I don't want God and guns and anti-abortion movements, I want politicians to stand up to those who are trying to force those things down our throats.

and okay now I'm afraid people will land on me like a ton of bricks, so I feel the need to add:

I love the NHS. :) I think everyone should be able to get treatment, regardless of ability to pay for it. The NHS isn't the best implementation of this sort of system, in my experience, though. We lived in Holland for years before moving here, and the mix of public funded/ private insured healthcare seemed to work really well. I'm thankful we lived there when DH had his cancer diagnosis. Now that I've had a few years with this system, I know for a fact he wouldn't have been referred with the same speed he was in NL. It would have been months before he'd have been able to see a consultant (again, in our part of the country. Your mileage may vary, of course).

my sister could not work - dialysis
so she enrolled as a college student to get Medicaid
Medicaid got her the kidney transplant she needed
BUT will not pay for her correct anti-rejection drugs
so she takes a cheaper option (as she does not have $26,000 a year to buy them herself)
and is left too ill to work.
if she did get a job, the health insurance would NOT cover her for the pre existing kidney problems

I SO wish that I had got her into a UK hospital when she came to visit, but she went home to Washington

KitKat Thats the thing I am trying to point out. Thanks to Hilary Clinton you now can't go bankrupt due to healthcare here in the US. Medicare steps in a covers you. I think its when you have a net worth (ie all assets minus all debts) of less than $30K but I am not sure as luckily our family has not needed this help.

California The guy in a motorbike accident was in an accident 18 years ago before changes were made. Maybe CA has different medicare but I know here in NJ the family would not be forced to declare bankruptcy. In the township where I live and the one next door property taxes are waived if you are in receipt of medicare and under the age of 65.

A single mother to 3 children was recently involved in a very serious car accident. The calls for help were not to pay for treatment but to help with the cost of keeping her children in their afterschool activies because it will be at least a year before she can work again. We were very happy to help and after speaking to her mother we also donated funds to cover what she would have saved towards the college education of her children. Others have already donated enough to pay off her mortgage.

I have experienced both NHS and American healthcare and American healthcare is a million times better than the NHS for the majority of people. There isn't much difference between the care provided in urgent cases but the aftercare difference based on my experience is insane. Also, maternity care in the US is very good. It is also great that I am able to book all medical appointments around other commitments. My obn has appointments from 7am-6pm Mon-Friday, the paediatrican is 8am - 9pm Monday through Saturday and the GP is 7am-10pm everyday of the week. No waiting a week to see a doctor here or longer to see a specialist.

Talkin Has she tried talking to her senator? Also she should call up the drug company as most of them have programs to assist those on low income with drug costs.

want2b Senator : she's done that. No joy.

And the drug company gave a year's worth but as she was 33 when it was done, they do not plan to give her 40 years worth to last a normal life expectancy.
She's spent all the money she inherited from relations on medical bills
and her Dad is still paying off debts from an uninsured relative who died in 1991 that had run to $300,000 before he died.

The US system is GREAT for those in work and utterly shocking for those not - and does not help those who have had misfortune to ever rediscover the American dream.

Talkin I took a quick look at the SSA website. She should call them as I think she qualifies as being disabled. This provides a link to the conditions that qualify someone for immediate disablility. The five step program determines if you are disabled and they list certain diseases that automatically qualify you.

Want2be thank you for your checking.
I know she is getting all the support she is entitled to - she has excellent doctors.
BUT what Medicaid is not allowed to do is give her the more expensive anti-rejection drug that suits her and would leave her able to work. They have to give her the cheaper alternative that means she is constantly ill.

Chances are that here in the UK she would have had some sort of medical rationing, but the insanity of it is that they paid for the seven years of dialysis and then the transplant but not the full aftercare.

Funding the more expensive drug would turn her into a taxpayer - but that bit of preventative joined up thinking is not a strong point of an insurance based system such as the USA has.

Ok a few points:

1. Yes it is great that you won't go bankrupt now. But imagine you were 50, just paid off your mortgage and are using your savings to put your kids through college and you get breast cancer. Oh yup there goes the house and the kids college fund. Ok you won't be on the street (oh actually you might be- how long is the 30K going to last when you can't work because you are ill?) but you have lost your life savings. Fair?

2. Greeneggs I can categorically tell you that was nothing to do with money. They may have been a bad doctor but it would not have been because they did not want to pay for a blood test/scan which costs THEM nothing. The times rationing comes in is with long ICU stays when the patient is unlikely to survive/benefit or the cancer drugs that cost 50000 pounds and mean an 85 year old will live an extra month but while vomiting and in pain in hospital. Believe me. And all this postcode lottery stuff is for specific treatments like IVF- no not fair but also not life or death. The media hypes this crap up.

3. I can add another experience in- Australia. Part public part private. Can get everything publicly, BASIC health insurance pretty cheap. But something has to give. You could wait MONTHS for a public referral to a specialist for cancer let alone anything else. I would rather people waited a few months for a hip replacement but got cancer surgery in a couple of weeks. NO one in the NHS waits massive lengths of time in the scheme of things. There is the 2 week wait scheme specifically for cancer. Yes some people are in pain for longer than would be nice but you can't have everything immediately, while not paying more tax. And not all diagnoses are immediately obvious. SOme people will have an illness missed but the alternative is everyone having a full body scan when they have an itchy finger just in case and then dying of the massive radiation doses later on. It is just not physically possible. Yes in Oz if you have a private cardiologist you can phone them at 3am but honestly how often do you need that? Go to the hospital if it is an emergency. There are some great things in Oz but I have also seen scary stuff. 20 year olds with first fits who in the UK would be seen and investigated in a few weeks waiting 6 months for an appointment (remember they can't drive until then, might lose their job, will not be on treatment) And yes in the private sector there is a little dose of the States. Elderly patients on inappropriate treatments which are not improving their quality of life and actually risky for them because they are paying for them. People have operation after operation for incurable problems and actually just prolonging death rather than life. The lack of financial incentive in the NHS is a big thing which you don't realise until you see the alternatives.

melbie We have set up DD's college savings account in her name. Should anything happen to us that money is hers. Also, money in retirement accounts is not included when declaring bankruptcy or when being assessed for medicare. If you can't work because you are ill then you are declared disabled and collect social security. The term insurance that DH and I carry on each other pays out if either us of us die or are disabled on a permenant basis in the next 28 years. These payouts can only occur after we have been declared disabled by SSA. Once you are disabled you automatically qualify for Medicare and you are not subject to net worth limitations.

I'm in the US right now. Most of the people I've spoken with support Obamacare as a step forward. There's disappointment that it doesn't go far enough and some people feel that that it will be a barrier to moving towards a single payer solution. There's also discomfort that they're being forced to effectively buy something from a private provider with no price controls. I don't personally know anyone who doesn't support reform of the healthcare system to make it more efficient and equitable even if they have issues with obamacare.

Want2be

California The guy in a motorbike accident was in an accident 18 years ago before changes were made. Maybe CA has different medicare but I know here in NJ the family would not be forced to declare bankruptcy. In the township where I live and the one next door property taxes are waived if you are in receipt of medicare and under the age of 65.

You think thing in the world of medical cover here have improved in the last 18 years? Then you must be living in a little republican cocoon surrounded by those who believe the same.
I live in the real world of the poor and disabled. I can only give examples of those I know, my kidney failing friend is still alive but who knows for how long. At least now they have nothing left to lose. As do many of my old patients.

Wanttobe
If you can't work because you are ill then you are declared disabled and collect social security.
Not sure how NJ handles this stuff, but here everyone who applies just about is denied first time around, many have to hire a lawyer to get them through the second application and theres always a chance it too will be denied.
It took our motorbike friend 3 years to finally get his Social security disability approved (after the doctors had told him he can't go back to work and that he was disabled) and then the SSA wanted him to accept and sign on the dotted line with no back pay, finally after fighting a little more, they back paid him nearly one year. How many people do you know have 3 years worth of expenses put away, they still had a mortgage and three children to pay for, luckily he had paid off his car so one less payment. They were on food stamps the last year waiting for SSDI as they had exhausted all savings and also had to cash out their retirement money to live on. Oh and his Disability payments only started in Nov of 2011 so this is recent.

I have experienced both NHS and American healthcare and American healthcare is a million times better than the NHS for the majority of people.

You are not comparing like with like, compare private hospital after care with US hospital after care.

I don't drink, smoke or use drugs. I don't even drink caffeine or eat any junk food. I eat nothing that is processed and my cupboards are full of fresh meat and fish, vegetables and whole grains (rice and spaghetti only, i don't eat bread). I go to the gym 3 times a week and i don't have any particularly dangerous hobbies (i like reading and playing piano!)

And all that does not mean you will never become ill or aquire a disability. I have treated a 26 year old who had a heart attack (MI not cardiac arrest). She was an athlete, and her job kept her fit. She ate all the right things, was fit and healthy and then one day collapsed.

You don't know if you will be involved in an RTI, or any other life changing incident.

YABU to use an apostrophe for 'Americans' in the thread title.

Gosh, can't believe some of the figures quoted. With costs like these no country will be able to offer unrestricted healthcare.

$26,000 a year for drugs. $300,000 debts left by a relative.