To feel sorry for the Queen having to shake hands with that utter toerag Mcguinness?

[Callisto]

Former terrorist, responsible for killing goodness knows how many innocents, not to mention British troops and Lord Mountbatten (who the Queen was alledgedly very close to). McGuinness is a really nasty piece of work (who should be left to rot in prison for the rest of his days) and while I can see that we need to forgive and forget, it seems to go far above and beyond what we should expect the Queen to do.

She offered her sympathies to anyone who has suffered through centuries of conflict. See here for Irish news coverage

Surely it doesn't matter what she exactly said, but the sentiment behind it. Move on. Why hate a nation for a few people's actions. I do not hate all Irish people (going on holiday there later in the year) just because a few idiots were murderers - on both sides. If McGuiness showed the same level of remorse it would be a step. I have never understood how the IRA claimed to be catholic - I'm sure there is some commandment about killing being a mortal sin. This boys mum clings to her faith and believes he will meet his maker and have to answer to him. Personally I hope the worms eat him.

Oh for heavens sake.

Do you imagine Her Maj sits over the breakfast cornflakes musing on to whom and how she might apologise?

HER ENTIRE LIFE IS SCRIPTED. SHE IS A MOUTHPIECE.

I am from Warrington. What happened in my town had an enormous impact on my life and how I view the world.

The IRA bombed it. It was a particularly nasty bombing. Instead of the normal warnings they deliberately made misleading and confusing warnings. Two boys died that day; the day before mothers day. I abhor what they did that day. A day that is often forgotten and over shadowed on the mainland by what happened a few years later in Manchester.

But the father of one of the boys is an inspiration to me. Instead of being bitter he has worked to build bridges between communities. And that is the only way forward.

Part of that is an acknowledgment that the British are not without blood on their hands, and not innocent of injustice and oppression.

Comprise is the word. And that does involve dealing with people who represent the worst elements to each side. It is right and proper as, it sends the message to all those who followed them that, that time is over.

McGuinness has his role in this. He is important to people. He may have blood on his hands (but then so do most elected heads of state in truth) but that is precisely why he is so important - because thats over - and he's sending that message to his followers as much as it being a symbolic statement to the other side.

Today is a good day. Living in the past and clinging to our hatred and bitterness only dooms us to repeat it for the next generation.

Remember the victims and remember that no one wants any more anymore. Thats the best tribute you can give to the dead.

This thread was never going to end well.

I was born in Ireland and now live in NI. I lived in England for a few years and was astounded at the lack of knowledge my English friends had regarding Irish/Anglo History.

My dad was at Bloody Sunday and will never forget the horror he witnessed. The IRA did terrible things. As did the British Forces, but they where decorated for it.

I'm not a republican, I just want to see the peace process continue to grow. I don't want the next generation to grow up with the same terror that we did. I couldn't tell you how many times our windows where blown in, or how many it es we where evacuated due to bomb scares.

No one wants this to continue.

All NI politicians have blood on their hands but that is in the past let's leave it there.

Today was a momentous day for Ireland.

It's an ongoing discussion, makinglemonade, and it hasn't ended badly yet.

What chance any peace process if women on Mn can't have a discussion asking each other things and listening to explanations?

The legacy left by The IRA, UVF and god knows how many splinter groups are paramilitary vigilantes delivering knee cappings and beatings to suspected drugs dealers in NI towns. Families are asked to bring the errant off spring to have the shooting and beating administered. The people are too frightened to speak out. The direct roots of these groups are sectarian.
That is the gift of the IRA that keeps on giving. Communities still terrorised by self appointed groups who act in their name.
Not over by a long mile

I think this thread has actually managed to recover its dignity and get quite civilised.

The essential problem is history:

A begets B begets C begets D and so on and so on. Circumstance begets viewpoint.

At some stage there has to be a ceasing and a willingness on both sides to draw a line whilst acknowledging the suffering of all. Much like SA's truth and reconciliation (altho that has all gone a bit to shit now...)

indieskies you are right :0 It's such a sensitive subject matter that I just expect it to end badly.

I've read right through the thread and have found the views interesting. I just wish people would know the facts on both sides before making comment on issues that are very sensitive to so many people.

lola this is an unfortunate legacy of the troubles. My own cousin was hunted to England by the UVF so I know how thus affects families.
I still believe in the peace process and hope that with every new generation this sort of thing gets left more and more in the past.

I remember going to Belfast for the first time in 2000. Some time after the peace process had began in ernest.

It shocked me. Especially since I was acutely aware that it was much better by that point that it had been.

I stayed with a Catholic friend. Her father had been part of the army. So she's grown up with abuse from both sides. It was an eyeopener. Her friends were great, but it didn't stop one of them from giving me considerable abuse because I was English after he'd had a few drinks.

I love the city. And I'd love to visit again (been 3 times now).

But I really do think that mainlanders for the most part have no clue about NI at all. I wouldn't say that I do particularly, but I do feel I know more that than the average mainlander because of what happened to me. The ignorance makes me sad. It was always someone else's problem and not ours despite the fact NI is supposed to be - rightly or wrongly - part of our country.

The Queen looked genuinely delighted to enter the Catholic Church and shake hands.

Ian Pasley scared the hell out of me on TV, due to his natural megaphone voice.

"I just wish people would know the facts on both sides before making comment on issues that are very sensitive to so many people."

I agree, except it is through ongoing discussion that people learn more. I have learned things on this thread and the one I started about the Queen having Sean Brady say prayers over her!

I have a friend who was maimed for life by the bomb in Victoria Station. I have best friends who are Irish catholics and tell terrible tales of discrimination and opression. Everyone's view is partisan to some extent, and all are victims of history and deeds past, as Hullygully said.

Today was a good day, this was a childish, one-sided OP.

Maryz Wed 27-Jun-12 19:31:54
The problem with knowing the facts on both sides is that the facts from both sides completely contradict each other, as with most of Irish history.

I am at this weird point of feeling that both sides had good cause at various points and at other times were utterly appalling and disgusting. I can't say either was ever right, as they clearly weren't. I find it confusing to understand and sympathise and yet at the same time feel like I want to vomit at the horror of crimes committed. By both sides. The whole situation comes from the very fact that people weren't communicating and not willing to look at the situation from the eyes of the other.

We all need to do that and we all need to look forward rather than backwards.

You know this sort of stuff boils my blood.

If people would take 30 minutes out of their self-righteous indignation to read about the British occupation of Ireland they would be in for a great shock.

Mandela did horrific things in the name of freedom and he has had every award imaginable thrown at him.

The British killed thousands of Irish people IN IRELAND over a huge expanse of time. Your queen is the head of state of a nation that crippled Ireland and did unspeakable things.

No, terrorism is never ok. But there was terrorism on BOTH sides and it is a big deal that HE is shaking HER hand, just as much as the other way around.

I do not condone terrorism or violence. I do not condone any activity undertaken by the IRA but to dismiss the hardships and cruelty suffered by an entire race - or even to compare it to the poor queen losing ONE cousin is, frankly, disgraceful.

Sadly wars are always full of contradictions. The difference here IMO is that what the IRA did is very well reported (quite rightly) but what the British soldiers did is not.

Catholic families couldn't exactly phone the police for help when they were being terrorized.

On reflection I think it's long overdue. People on both sides have suffered so much in Northern Ireland. Not forgetting those who have suffered in the mainland UK, and The Republic Of Ireland.

So many wasted years and lives. The cynic in me asks why after the bombings in The City Of London ('93 &'96 I think), all parties felt it was imperative to reinstate a ceasefire and have serious talks?

I think that to have this sort of discussion can only be a good thing. There has been blind prejudice on both sides for too long. My father grew up an Ulster Scot in Derry. He is now in a care home with dementia, having lived in England since 1949, but he still knows by some sort of strange telepathy which members of staff are Catholic and says things like, "he's a nice chap, even though he's Catholic". It's extraordinary.
The one time I've been to Ireland, which was in the mid 1990s, I was walking down a street carrying my baby when a couple of old men spat at me because I was speaking with an English accent (saying something quite harmless). My mum remembers pubs in London in the 30s with "No Irish" painted above the lintel.
All these things are examples of terrible, ingrained, everyday prejudice. The bombings and atrocities by soldiers make the headlines and get people's emotions going, but the low-level prejudice on both sides is something that also needs to be overcome before there can be a peaceful future. And we can all help to achieve that by listening rather than by making accusations. We can all listen to the stories people are telling on here of losing loved ones in acts of unjustified violence, and empathise with their pain, whichever side they were on. To demonise McGuinness or the Queen or anyone else doesn't help, because it creates a straw man to hate, and that's not really the point. We can't change the past, but we can influence the future by changing attitudes now, and surely that's worth having a discussion about?

ThePathanKhansWitch
93 was when Warrington was bombed. 96 was when Manchester was bombed. The two bombs you are referring to were part of a campaign, and it wasn't those two London bombs alone.

Basically 91 - 96 represented a shift in the IRA targeting the mainland, which focused the mind of the British government and public more than bombings in NI itself. Prior to that, there hadn't been many significant incidents on the mainland since the Brighton Bombing.

Until then, like I say - it wasn't 'our' problem.

It's a HUGELY complicated situation. It is not as simple as saying that she shook hands with the man who ordered the murder of her uncle. I don't want to go into it but it is important to remember the actions of a colonial country. The queen was BRILLIANT to do what she did today, as was Martin McGuinness. Everyone is being mature and we are moving to a place where violence is not seen as appropriate or warranted!

Hmm YY Baltic Exchange was in "93 and Docklands '96, very prolonged campaign, I think the Warrington bomb was a month later April 1993 (?).

It seems I.R.A changed tactics "high value economic targets" (the city, large commercial shopping complexes), it is me being a cynical old cow, and thinking Governments valued The City more than civilians.

[Wine] to Mo, where ever you are.

March 20th 1993.

The IRA tried (and failed) to bomb the gas works in the town the previous month too.

Sorry, had a very long case conference. I suppose I did sound very angry before, but boys mother had been on phone in floods of tears as 'that man' was on tv. I was a kid when he was killed, and I saw it happen, so it has greatly affected my life as well as his families. It doesn't take a genius to work out why I work with abused and angry children.
All I want is peace for NI. No more deaths or violence. But if he would just say sorry, it would help. I know there is right and wrong on both sides, but I would like the man who killed a child, and just missed killing me, to say he is sorry. He won't but it would help.
I am now going to live up to my name and pour a very large glass. It has been a pig of a day.