To feel sorry for the Queen having to shake hands with that utter toerag Mcguinness?

[Callisto]

Former terrorist, responsible for killing goodness knows how many innocents, not to mention British troops and Lord Mountbatten (who the Queen was alledgedly very close to). McGuinness is a really nasty piece of work (who should be left to rot in prison for the rest of his days) and while I can see that we need to forgive and forget, it seems to go far above and beyond what we should expect the Queen to do.

Agree wholeheartedly with 3littlerabbits. Awful things were done on both sides - but the 'who did what to whom' has to stop, and I think this handshake is a step on the path. Going forward, the history of the conflict should be taught properly in schools in UK from the standpoint of 'Let's learn from this and never, ever do it again'. We can't forgive each other if we keep trying to prove that 'yeah, we were bad, but you were worse'. We have to move on now.

If the 12th was banned can I still get a holiday?

Ian Paisley was portrayed as someone speaking out against the IRA though, not as someone bad on an opposing team, as it were. He wasn't dubbed, was he? Not on the same level at all in the general conciousness. I think your points actual back mine up!

The 12th should become National 'Hump Your Neighbour of a Differing Religion' Day.

If you knew a mere smattering of Irish history you would realise what a sacrifice it also is for McGuiness to shake hands with the Queen.

Good for both of them.

I wish I could meet him to discuss his feelings on being the cause of so many deaths. I wish I could show him pictures of a little boy who would be alive now if it wasn't for him. I wish he had said sorry & didn't go around telling Americans that the IRA only hit military targets. I wish NI everlasting peace but I can never, ever forgive that man for being a murderer. The rights and wrongs of both sides do not concern me these days, as I hope it is all over, but how Ireland elected a man who blew up children is beyond me. He needs to apologise (as I believe the Queen did, although personally nothing to do with her), and he needs to understand the hurt and devastation he caused to one family. Ironically an Irish Catholic family who just happened to be living in England. 9 years old Mr McGuiness. I hope you sleep soundly at night.

A good post, 3littlerabbits and one that my Belfast born DH heartily agrees with.

Totally with you, Mums - not forgetting Tim Parry and Johnathan Ball.

My point about the marches is that people who partake them see them as an ingrained part of their culture and are threatened by moves to stop them from happening. Allowing them to happen isn't about the past and what they represent, it's about what is happening now and forgoing your own prejudices to prevent future divisiveness.

Like I said in my original post about it, not my cup of tea, and of course the orange order really don't help themselves sometimes insisting they go on certain routes when they know it will cause nothing but trouble, but as an outsider I think it's hypocritical to justify the troubles as part of a fight for cultural and religous freedom, but then go on to try and oppress the tradditions of others.

Generally though, my view on this is mainly one of practicality, I think that banning orange marches would cause more problems for the peace process in Northern Ireland than it would solve. I live here I don't want there to be problems with the peace process, therefore I say let them go ahead with reasonable restrictions on where they can march imposed.

Oh and Christain's within most branches of the faith often tend towards hypocrisy, I don't think they can help it

I don't think Ian Paisley needed to be portrayed as anything, he said enough for anyone listening to be able to form their own opinion about what he stood for. While the English mainland was being bombed by the IRA, obviously people in England were having their lives affected by the IRA and were forming attitudes as a consequence; if you grew up in London in the late 70s/early 80s, as I did, bomb threats were a very frequent occurrence, and so English people with no interest in politics were aware from their own experience about the IRA but not so directly about the Unionists. I remember a time when one expected it to be the IRA whenever there were traffic cones blocking off a street in Central London, handbags checked whenever you went into a department store, etc - the constant low level threat of terrorism did somewhat affect millions of people who were never directly involved in violence. I think it's true that we didn't know nearly enough about the history behind it from the other side; it wasn't until last year that I found out what awful things Cromwell had done in Ireland, for example, but I think the IRA were better known than the Unionists in the UK largely because of their own actions, taken presumably in part to achieve exactly that.

When I lived in NI I dreaded teh 12th even the sound of it makes me cringe It is out dated and should be stopped

mumsneedwine that poor little boy and his family. I can completely understand your anger. Children die in every war, on all sides, and it is always a tragedy and an outrage.

I'm sure that the family of Gerry Donaghey, aged 17 when shot dead by British forces on Bloody Sunday, feel similarly about the woman who pinned a medal to his murderer.

I know that sounds tit-for-tat, but the fact is there's been the deepest of suffering on both sides and focusing only on the victims of McGuinness' ugly history distorts that fact.

What apology from the Queen are you referring to? I know that Cameron apologised for Bloody Sunday specifically, after the Saville report finally exposed the truth about that atrocity, but I am not aware of the Queen ever having made such a gesture.

The real name for the 12th is Get As Pissed As Possible And Try And Walk In a Straight Line Day.

I think it's hypocritical to justify the troubles as part of a fight for cultural and religous freedom, but then go on to try and oppress the tradditions of others.

Eh?... Sorry, What?

cocolpew my view has nothing whatsoever to do with my love of having an extra bank holiday in the middle of July

Anyone who knew a smattering of British political history would know that by convention the Queens has no say in the decisions made by a government that is democratically elected by the people of Britain, or the security forces. Think of the hoo-ha when she said in her speech in parliament this spring that she had a preference for Scotland to stay in the Union, for example. If Martin McGuiness was meeting Major General Robert Ford or Margaret Thatcher I would completely agree. She is a figurehead, while McGuiness was an active participant who personally ordered shootings and bombings on a civilian population. So what if some think it was done "In her name"? It was done in my name too, as a British citizen, how far are we going to go down that road?

Anyway, anyway, anyway, I'm glad it's happened. Agree with 3littlerabbits that the majority of people in NI just want to try and forgive and create as "normal" a society as possible. You can't live and work along people from different creeds when you hold on to so much bitterness.

Of course not twofurryones. Perish the thought.

Orange marches are about nothing but the past and a desperate attempt to hang on the the bad old ways.

Ban them, ban them , ban them. They contribute nothing. They are purely divisive, they exist with the sole reason to provoke.

When did the queen apologise for British atrocities in NI?
She decorated soldiers instead.

It is terrible that a child is caught up in conflict, but lets not make things up in anger

allyours you may not like my phrasing (not sure I do either) but that's how it's viewed by those that you try to stop marching.

Like I say my viewpoint is practical, there has to be live and let live on each side. What is more helpful to the peace process, trying to stop people from doing what they perceive as their 'right' or just letting them get on with it (within reason)? Why make part of the protestant community feel under threat? Why make them feel like they have something to fight against?

The Queen was head of the armed forces when the shoot to kill policy was in operation in Northern Ireland. Terrible things were done on both sides. if this helps the healing process then it's good thing.

squoosh that may be the case but my argument is that act of banning them now, in the present day, is just asking for unnecessary trouble.

A bit like if you ban your daughter from seeing an inappropriate boyfriend, he becomes instantly more attractive and a prize worth holding on to.

I think it would be an interesting situation if the queen avenged the death of mountbatten on mcguiness

I understood the Queen apologised last year during her dinner with the Irish President. Not for individual crimes but for the past. I know bad things were done by both sides, and those people have to live with their crimes, but He was personally responsible for killing small children. Deliberately, with planning, and no remorse. He planted bombs in public areas and then sent coded warnings so people were shepherded into the path of the bombs. He appeared on tv glorifying these deaths. And I am glad he has seen sense and no longer kills children, but why can he not say sorry. I was wrong. It solved nothing. It would really help if he did. But he never will as he is a coward.

This is what mumsneedwine means, I think. Fair play, Liz.