To feel sorry for the Queen having to shake hands with that utter toerag Mcguinness?

[Callisto]

Former terrorist, responsible for killing goodness knows how many innocents, not to mention British troops and Lord Mountbatten (who the Queen was alledgedly very close to). McGuinness is a really nasty piece of work (who should be left to rot in prison for the rest of his days) and while I can see that we need to forgive and forget, it seems to go far above and beyond what we should expect the Queen to do.

"Um. I am torn over this one. I totally feel as you have said above.

BUT... peace process and all that, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter etc. Mandela for example is feted worldwide but some of his actions were truly dreadful."

THIS!!

How will we ever get to a situation of peace if we keep harping back to past events?

The British and those that fought in her name were not entirely blameless. So from the Irish Catholic POV they probably feel exactly the same at him shaking her hand.

Lentil, please don't cheapen the situation by talking about not caring for traffic wardens in the context of what the British have done in Ireland, or what the IRA have done over many decades.

I agree callisto but terrorism seems to be justified by some - again, look at Mandela and the ANC. Of course apartheid was wrong and vile; and they used horrible horrible techniques in the course of the war against it; yet these days Mandela is seen as a kind of a saint.

I think there must be some kind of parallel there but it makes me very uncomfortable to think that a man who one day can order the kneecapping of 16 year olds (McGuinness) can some years later be an elected member of parliament even if he chooses not to recognise it.

People forget Mandela did horrific, unforgivable things for freedom.

NO I DIDN'T! I said I don't condone it at all, I said it's a big turn about to shake someones hand after fighting against them.

Exactly Boschy.

Agree McGuinness is a shit. I assume the queen doesn't get much choice in whether she shakes hands with him or not. I guess it's called taking one for the team.

I can see McGuinness' point tbh, to believe in something so strongly that you would kill for the cause ( NOT condoning at all) and to then shake hands with the leader of the the opposite side is a big turn about.

I'm sorry but this just makes me so angry he has accepted a position of power within a peaceful Northern Ireland, if he is to fulfill that role with any kind of integrity then he has to put those kind of thoughts behind him. There shouldn't be any question of should I shouldn't I shake the Queen's hand he should just grow the fuck up and get on with it.

It sickens me that I live in a country which is led in part by politicians who show no remorse for their previous actions. There was wrong on all sides during the troubles, but the SF party line is that only republicans were victims and that the death and injury caused by the IRA was justifiable freedom fighting is infuriating.

Taking into account everyone's very varied views on the subject - personally i just think it's weird making an old lady shake hands with a man who (allegedly) was a member of a group who (allegedly) wanted to kill her.

It's a shame many English are so ignorant of Anglo/Irish history, yet they have such strong emotions.

I'm just glad the revolting McGuinness can't say he is President of Ireland as he shakes her hand.

Callisto...I admire the Queen immensely for her dignity in this instance and during her visit to Ireland earlier in the year- her bow at the Garden of Remembrance in Dublin was enormously significant.

This is a meeting of the head of the nation with one of the ministers who lead part of the country.
It is also the meeting of the head of the Armed Forces with one of the leader of an illegal army both of which commited atrocities (Bloody Sunday vs Omagh anyone?).

There is wrong on both sides- admitting that will quicker lead to forgiveness and getting on.

I personally have NO time for Sinn Fein/Gerry Adams/Martin McGuinness but they are the ones elected by people in Northern Ireland and they are the ones who eventually came to the table to try to find peace.

Why is it a shame, Silly?

The thing that pissed me off was the whole "will he/won't he" pantomime that surrounded the whole thing. He was always going to do it, especially after the Queen's highly successful visit to the Republic last year. If Sinn Fein are going to be seen as a legitimate option for voters south of the border they'll have to grow up and move on, at least a wee bit. They don't have the same tribal views as up here, and for most people re-unification is quite low on their list of priorities, somewhere beneath dragging themselves out of the carcass of the celtic tiger. So they have to present themselves as statesmen, not small minded cornerboys who worry about shaking a visiting head of state's hand.

If people in England understood what the English did, they may understand why Irish terrorists came into being, and what that handshake was about.

Exactly silly.
History goes beyond our living memory and the english were horrific to the irish.

I'm totally torn on this subject. I'm from an Irish family and have heard the stories of what happened during the early part of the 20th century with the Black & Tans etc. I also know about "absentee landlords" (ie. English) still demanding their rent be paid during the potato blight of 1845-47 when the tenants were starving to death. I also know about the IRA not only "knee capping" people, but the stories of them slicing round the skin of the wrist of a captured soldier and rolling the skin up to his elbow...

It's all just so ... heartbreaking on all counts.

Unless things have changed, I doubt that many Irish republic residents will have a Sinn fein majority. Back in the day it was always the odd box psycho that was in that party, most Irish were not into the IRA.

Don't most people know at least the basics of the history? I certainly do and I do not think the handshake should have happened.

One of my maternal great uncles was involved in the Easter Rising and others were involved in supporting SF in a variety of ways. I, however, am English born and my father was in the Royal Navy so I have the traditions of Queen and country built into me as well perhaps as a sympathy for the 'underdog'.

So although my knowledge of anglo-irish history is not as good as it could be I have an emotional stake on both sides. and I am still very uncomfortable about the thought that the Queen, a political and cultural symbol, is shaking hands with McGuinness.

In my book there is NEVER EVER any justification for terrorism (which let's not forget means killing and maiming innocent people just as much if not more so than those one could arguably see as the 'tool' of the organisation you are trying to fight).

Sinn Fein, are a party I would equate to bnp.

Appauling atrocities have been committed by and in the name of both those leaders shaking hands today. They have more in common than most realise

Well said TheCraicDealer, down here we definitely don't have the same tribal views and reunification is actually, positively not wanted by a lot of people, partly for economic reasons, partly because we don't want the hassle of importing all that tribal stuff (it's why there was a shudder when McGuinness was up for election as our president, so divisive).

It was great to see the Queen here last year, she impressed most people with her obvious pleasure at being here, her willingness to do everything asked of her and she even spoke a bit of Irish. Her respect at the Garden of Rememberance was brilliant as well. the least that little twat could do was shake her hand.

I am not an IRA supporter.

I am so proud of my teenage GrandFATHER who took part in the Dublin eEaster rising, which freed the Irish republic from the people who tortured and killed his innocent family.

I am married to a Northern Irish Catholic and can honestly say that on the whole the English have no idea of what was happening in Northern Ireland in the 60s and 70s. To paint the situation as one sided as many have done is blinkered in the extreme.

The prejudice and discrimination that the Catholic population suffered is something we should be aware of and ashamed of. There was something that needed to be fought against and for. Murder is always wrong and some of the things that were done were evil, but the Irish have quite a lot to forgive and forget as well.