To feel sorry for the Queen having to shake hands with that utter toerag Mcguinness?

[Callisto]

Former terrorist, responsible for killing goodness knows how many innocents, not to mention British troops and Lord Mountbatten (who the Queen was alledgedly very close to). McGuinness is a really nasty piece of work (who should be left to rot in prison for the rest of his days) and while I can see that we need to forgive and forget, it seems to go far above and beyond what we should expect the Queen to do.

pmsl fuckersnail so true!

He's an elected politician - not my cup of tea but tbf I'm sure she's shaken hands with a lot of elected politicians and heads of state that would leave me queasy - I hear she's even hosted dinners for some of them.

that is true maryz in terms of status. But still, Mandela is upheld as a great man, a freedom fighter - and ANC tactics were just as horrible as the IRA ones. I think I tend to agree McGuinness is worse, but that may just be because it is closer to home for me?

If you want McGuiness to rot in jail you should want Thatcher in there with him. Responsible for a whole lot of innocent lives lost herself. And do you want the British soldiers who shot innocent protesters in the back to rot in jail too?

I'm sick of people who haven't the first clue about what they are talking about spouting off about who did what. Some British people can't even tell the difference between Ireland and NI, let alone have any grasp of the issues involved.

This isn't going to go well AT ALL...

But great name Penis

Appauling atrocities have been committed by and in the name of both those leaders shaking hands today. They have more in common than most realise

This. And what PenisVanLesbian said.

I do wish people would stop using the word English when British would be more appropriate. In the context of an NI discussion it's particularly inexcusable.

As for the handshake, I'm glad it's happened because it feels like progress. As neither of the people involved was forced to do it, I don't feel particularly sorry for them. McGuinness doesn't have to stand for political office, and the Queen could have abdicated or retired some time ago if she had enough of a problem with being expected to shake hands with people she doesn't think much of.

YANBU. It may be politic for the Queen to forgive and forget in a symbolic sense, but at least one man in the room maintained his integrity. Prince Philip was reported as moving quickly away when McGuinness sidled up to him for a chit-chat.

Some of you seriously need to learn some history before you start spouting off about stuff you have no idea about.

yy

*Black and Tans, the famine, hedge schools, the Easter Rising, the history is long and ugly re: English terrorism toward the Irish.

But re: this meeting, GooseyLoosey's post is more to the point. We're talking about recent, personal, living memory here when we talk about what the Irish have to forgive and move past - Bloody Sunday, internment without trial, lack of access to housing and jobs, and the countless daily indignities, humiliations and intimidations that occur when you have tanks and soldiers on the streets every day.

The Lord Mountbatten connection surely makes this gesture personally painful for the Queen. But do you really think that McGuinness lived his life in Derry without being close to anyone who was personally affected by the atrocities carried out by the British army?

I hate violence, and I don't think that murder is a legitimate way to make a political point. I also don't think it's a legitimate way to keep people suppressed and too afraid to come out and demand their civil rights peacefully (see Derry on 30 January, 1972. and while you're at it, see the more than three decades of lies and cover ups and justifications of that terrorist act, most of which hinged on slandering the innocent victims).

They are both guilty of the terrorism that they sanctioned by ordering it, or by remaining silent on it when it happened in their name. But the handshake is a good thing. I'm all for moving on, but the notion that it's the English that have more to forgive is just plain galling.*

Applauds loudly.

My Grandfather was also involved in the Easter Uprising.My Grandmother got my Dad and two aunts out of Ireland before WW2, cos she decided that Catholics would not get a proper education in Ireland. My dad went back after the war as a qualified time served joiner, and could not get work,cos he was a Catholic.

Re Bloody Sunday, I think that atrocity will live in the minds of people for years.Remember that the British Army were brought in to protect the Nationalists, and then ended up turning on them. I think we all know that there was a very large increase in recruitment to the IRA just after that.

But lets not forget the atrocities committed by both sides. Both of them were terrorists. I abhor violence same as other people, but it is time to move on.

However what is irritating me at the moment is that religious bigotry still allowed to continue by allowing Orange Parades.:(

Nobody should have to deal with this child murdering scum. Ever.

It's always the "Whataboutery" that derails these threads, makes it hard to have a useful exchange of views rather than insults.

OneHand, great post.

yep, childish and irritating

On a side note, re. the term "Troubles", that used to bother me, until I remembered the standard phrase spoken at funerals in Ireland, North and South. "Sorry for your trouble."

SusanneLinder how does the banning of orange parades help anyone? They really aren't my cup of tea, and I'm not looking forward to having the mini-12th go past my house in a couple of days but what is to be gained by supressing the tradditions of part of the protestant community? It's that kind of attitude that started the trouble in the first place.

maryz it is true to say that NI Catholics had a vote, but it is incorrect to imply that the IRA/SF campaign was down to them not liking how nationalists voted.
First of all thanks to gerrymandering, nationalist votes in NI had a lot less impact than unionists, so effectively they only had a half a vote.
Secondly the modern IRA grew out of the despicable treatment of NI Catholics by the government, the councils and the police. No proper representation due to gerrymandering, no houses, no jobs, no schools. No interest from the police in crimes committed in your areas. Is it any wonder the nationalists turned to the IRA to help control their communities when the RUC wanted nothing to do with it?
I hate Sinn Fein and McGuinness and what they stand for. But I know the modern IRA didn't exist in a vacuum. I know that they had support from local communities in NI because they offered them protection that the RUC would not. McGuinness came from the Bogside. At the time he grew up the options for young Catholic men were leave or fight which really equated to join the IRA.

As for the actual OP. I think the handshake was important. I think they both are politically astute enough to realise its impact is greater than their own personal feelings. I think it marks a big step forward for Ireland and Britain.

Surely the whole symbolism of the handshake, and its value, lies in saying neither of us, nor the governments we represent, is going to let the past, awful as it was, get in the way of democracy and good relations any longer?

I don't imagine MMG and the Queen think well of each other, but that's the whole point. They are shaking one another's hands anyway, to encourage us to move on (without forgetting) to something much more positive. No one gets much out of the politics of grievance, and the battle of the grudges engaged in on this thread is very depressing.

Most of the people commenting here appear to have no idea of the atrocities committed by the British army, on the orders of the monarchy. Of course what the IRA did was wrong, two wrongs don't make a right but perhaps you shouldn't have plundered and ravaged our country if you didn't want retaliation.

And for the record, many Irish people and not all supporters of Sinn Fein, or even more so the IRA would have completely understood had McGuinnes who, again, is extremely unpopular, refused to shake the Queen's hand. She is representative of the oppression of her institution on our country for 800 years.

"I think it marks a big step forward for Ireland and Britain."

Doesn't have much to do with Ireland. She made her visit there last year. Why would you think it would make any impact on Ireland at all?

She shakes hands with whomever she is told to shake hands with, presumably.
Queens don't get a lot of autonomy.

FWIW, I live in NI and I absolutely love it here. I am half and half (one parent from Belfast, one from England) We are lucky enough to live in a balanced community (approx 60/40 Catholic/ Protestant) and have integrated primary and secondary schools. Education is the only thing that will fix it.

She'll sit and eat dinner with Mugabe, I don't think she'd baulk at shaking Martin's hand...