to feel sad that friend is happy to be separated from her newborn for first 3 nights

[Whoneedssleepanyway]

My friend is due to have DC2 in a few weeks and after a very bad labour resulting in some problems for her DS, she has booked into a private hospital for an elective CS.

I w her the other day and she said the hospital insist she stays in 3 nights and it is brilliant as they will take the baby to the nursery all night for her so she can sleep and will feed the baby for her as she doesn't intend to BF.

I didn't pass comment as this is up to her but I can't help feeling a bit sad that her baby won't be with its mum for the first 3 nights of its life but will be with some stranger, both my DDs slept with me (on my chest) for first 3 nights.

AIBU?

Oh and please... COULDN'T MOVE WITH PAIN but single handedly looked after a newborn. FFS! Could anything scream competitive pareting martyr louder???

I think I, too, should now out before I get into a massive paddy about this.

Despite what seems like a reasoned post and with a wide birth experience, your post Horrible, just feels like it lacks empathy for other people's experiences. How do you know this woman didn't have PND after the terrible birth and problems with her DS due to lack of sleep? Perhaps BFeeding was a shocking experience. Perhaps, perhaps...

Worrywort has put it well.

I really don't subscribe to this competitive parenting thing horrible

You can think I'm selfish, I'm happy for you to think that although how you draw that conclusion, knowing nothing about my life is quite amusing.

I dont think my family and friends would agree but I also think I do not have to follow what you, or any study says in order to be a good parent and my DCs are testament to that.

I have a life outside of being a mother, I have a job, friends, extended family, things I like to do.
It doesn't make me any less of a parent.

And the really sad thing?
Attitudes like yours are what prevents new mums in need asking for help. They feel ashamed and force themselves to carry on and do whatever the current study says in order to feel they are doing the right thing.

So they risk their health, their ability to look after their babies properly in case someone thinks they are wrong or selfish for wanting help.

Worry - your comment is hugely revealing of your personal insecurities on this issue.

Just one thought - it's not all about YOU ya know.

But, it's very sad that fewer preterm babies get cuddles with their mums and dads, and fewer get breastfed. Can't be helped sometimes. But all the research into this area has resulted in hospitals encouraging parents of poorly or preterm babies to breastfeed and have skin to skin where possible. Prior to researchers finding out about the physiological benefits of s2s (such as better growth and cognitive development) very few units really encouraged 'kangaroo care' for early babies.

And the really sad thing?
Attitudes like yours are what prevents new mums in need asking for help. They feel ashamed and force themselves to carry on and do whatever the current study says in order to feel they are doing the right thing.

Wise words tantrumsandballoons. Very very wise words.

Sorry, Shag - what are my obvious insecurities???

Tantrum - Many mothers make the best choices they can for their babies FOR their babies, and not because they want to impress other women with their mothering skills.

And as I said - keeping well mums and babies together as much as possible after birth does NOT mean that the mothers care needs should be neglected.

But you carry on ignoring this vital point as acknowledging it would entirely demolish your argument, which as far as I can see is based on nowt more than misapprehensions about what 'baby centred' care actually involves.

I must have some obvious insecurities too then.

Although maybe not that obvious as no one had ever noticed.

Incredibly wise tantrums. I wonder how many mums who can't cope but can't ask for help might be helped by a few simple nights sleep.

I also wonder how much encouraging new mums to have to look after their newborns almost solo when they've had horrible births (and no one can say a CS, even an elective CS isn't a fairly traumatic way to have a baby, especially with the aftercare) is down to cost cutting.
In other cultures there is a whole ring of support for new mothers. But in Britain we seem to think that a mum should be the be all and end all for a baby. What we need is more support for new mums on the wards or in homes, whether in the form of doulas, nursery nurses, midwives, family, whatever. And not to make mothers feel guilty for not being able to do it all themselves if they can't cope. Or at least trying to make sure that mums can rest before they go doolally with exhaustion.

Worry - none of this is about how much you love or don't love your baby.

Truly the thought hadn't crossed my mind.

And baby centred care should not involve the neglect of mothers.

Ok?

horrible

Ah the word "sad" again. It saddens me that people can be so passive aggressive.

I don't understand which vital piece of info I'm ignoring.

I'll just make it simple.

If a new mum wants to keep her baby with her at night and feels well enough that is her choice, that's lovely.

If a new mum feels she would cope much better if her baby was in the nursery so she could rest and recover, that is her choice. Also fine IMO.

what is not fine is people who insist there is only one correct way to bring up a child. That by asking for help means you are selfish. And you have to carry on, exhausted and in pain because that's what you are supposed to do.

I think it's lovely if a mum chooses to keep the baby next to her at night.
I also think its lovely to feel able to say i need help without being made to feel wrong because a study says so.

I make my decision based on what is best for myself and my children.
My children come above everyone else and have done for the past 14 years. But I also have my life. And if I need help I'm not ashamed to ask. I don't feel it makes me inadequate.

Other , vulnerable new mums may.

Shag - WHat more does a baby need than a mother than loves it more than life itself?

For sure, you could spend 100% of your time with some one who resented you. You could never be apart from them... Can't see how that would have a good outcome.

Surely, the only thing that is important for a baby is that the mum loves the baby and is in a fit state to care for it.

I really am failing to see why the first 3 days of life should be held up as a beacon of importance. I really really am failing to see that.

I think that people who obsess about this early stuff have very young children and have not yet had the chance to stuff up in the many and various ways that are possible in the coming years. Or they are currently stuffing up but can reassure themselves that at least they did this right.

And if that sounded patronising, it's because I meant it to

This was completely common practise when my mum had me 40 plus years ago - a well rested mum is going to be better able to cope than a sleep deprived one@

!

Human babies ate born incredibly vulnerable and need constant care. That's why naturally other women, including grandmothers and other extended family will share mothering duties with a new mother, so that she can get food, sleep or rest. This is in effect what these midwives will be doing. Allowing a mother to rest, for a mere 3 nights, is simply helping her out a bit after a major operation, before she has to care 24/7 for that child for the foreseeable future. How "sad" .

I meant to say in a tribal/evolutionary sense that's what humans do irt childcare.

I had no skin to skin with DD, she was swaddled up and handed to DH in the theatre (elective CS) then handed to me one I could sit up again. Latched her on in recovery and fed like a champion. The whole idea of naked skin to skin seemed utterly impractical, I didn't fancy sitting around on the ward with my top off, and I worried she would get cold. So aside from boob to face contact, we didn't do it. Our bonding hasn't suffered, neither did the feeding.

Although on night two when she just wanted to feed all night, when a midwife came and took her away for an hour at 4AM I could have kissed her (the midwife! DD had already had all the kisses in the world) as I desperately needed to sleep and if I hadn't slept I might had dropped DD as I could barely function. Again, no bonding issues.

I didn't do naked/topless skin to skin with either of my babies and they both bf fine. When I had dd the woman in the bed next to me had done skin to skin with her baby for a couple of hours in recovery and he got so cold in the process that he spent their first night in an incubator and she spent it crying while I tried to offer some reassurance. Hardly an auspicious start for her.

"what is not fine is people who insist there is only one correct way to bring up a child"

No.

But we can say that babies who have prolonged contact with their mothers around the time of birth as a group:

• breastfeed better
• breastfeed longer

... and that babies who have skin to skin with their mother cry less, are better regulated in respect of their temperature and their blood glucose levels, and that mother and baby pairs who have skin to skin, particularly when it's prolonged, appear to show more 'bonding' markers during the early days.

This is all according to the World Health Organisation, and the evidence is considered important enough to influence public policy on how maternity units are run in the UK - hence the gradual disappearance of nurseries and nursery nurses from UK hospitals.

So no - do what what want with your baby. You're entitled to do that in respect of every aspect of their lives.

But let's stop ignoring the fact that those people whose job it is to study newborn behaviour and physiology, almost to a man/woman, do not support the practice of separating mothers and babies for prolonged periods during the immediate postnatal period where it can be avoided.

C-section rates of nearly 30% and poor postnatal provision do pose challenges for new mothers, but with respect - that's not entirely the same issue.

"That's why naturally other women, including grandmothers and other extended family will share mothering duties with a new mother, so that she can get food, sleep or rest. This is in effect what these midwives will be doing"

You've clearly not worked on a postnatal ward.

Do you think midwives have got time to sit around cuddling newborns for hours on end?

Because, patently, the longer and better you breast feed is utterly indicative of how long, happy and fulfilled life you will lead

Should add - that what grandmothers/aunts etc in traditional societies tend to do is cook and clean for the new mother, massage her, make her special foods. They DON'T tend to take the baby off for many hours at a time where mothers can't see or hear them. Because mothers in these cultures really need to breastfeed and anything which could threaten the establishment of breastfeeding (such as separating mothers from their newborns) is a serious threat to their baby's well-being.

If you want to know more about the childbirth and early motherhood in other cultures, this is a good place to start reading: here

Shagmund, full marks for effort. I admire your stamina.