to think if you want to work in silence, don't go to a coffee shop

[whimsicalname]

I was in a chain coffee shop this morning, across the road from our city museum, waiting with my 2 year old for it to open.

I was drinking my coffee, he sat opposite me eating raisins. Other people were working, or chatting, or reading the paper. You know, doing normal coffee shop stuff.

After a while, the boy gets up to wander around. He's not running, he's not sticky, he's just mingling. He walked towards a man with a laptop. Stood nearby him, and then said hello. Man looked up at me, and said 'do you mind, I'm concentrating here' in a really unpleasant way.

If I'd been with a couple of friends chatting we'd have made a lot more noise but I can't help but feel he probably wouldn't have told us off!

We were across the road from the university library (which has some open access areas) and all of 200m away from the city central library, so plenty of options for quiet. Blimey, he could even have sat in the cathedral for some quiet contemplation.

AIBU or was he?

Viola - Germany. Home of the uptight, unfriendly, non-humoured krout. But at least they talk to kids, or wink, or ruffle their hair, or you know, act like real actual human beings. (mostly tongue in cheek, there)

He was BU, if it had been me, with DC not the laptop, I would have apologised overly profusely and then sat DC down to sing hand clappy songs and play silly noisey games, just to keep him occupied and away from The General Public

And I agree - not the lad's fault at all...but sadly, he happened to be the one getting up our fucking noses.

The thing is, Damsel, if I ignore your kids whilst I'm having my child free time, and you ignore mine when you're having yours, then that's going to be a lot of ignoring! I'm not saying I act like a children's entertainer when alone, but I don't mind a smile, a wave or a few friendly words.

I know that children (and most parents) like it, as I do, so I'm happy to keep that kind of cycle going, rather than one of ignoring any children who aren't my own.

There's rather a lot of posts on Toytown complaining about unfriendly to children Germans are.

Because toddlers don't mingle!
If your child is not happy to sit and eat cake and draw pictures, then it's time for OP to leave and find something else to keep him happy, not just let him do what he wants and have a nosy around!

The majority of venom on this thread seems to becoming from those who think that if you don't worship children that you shouldn't be allowed to leave the house.

I certainly don't think that anyone should worship children! I just think that if people are going to go to places where there are likely to be children, they shouldn't be rude if they actually encounter one.

We always used to tell our children not to bother people who looked busy. It seemed to be appreciated. Toddlers can't read the signals so we as parents have to teach them.

Really? Not my experience at all.

Mind you, there's lots of posts on ToyTown complaining about a lot of odd things. Many posters on there seem to want Germany to be exactly like the UK or USA in every way. Or at least that was the case 6 or so years ago when I stopped going on there.

Have had similar very good experiences in Italy and France. Also in the UK, but a disproportionate amount of negative ones too, and I consider myself fairly strict.

If I wanted to interact with children I'd go to child friendly places. Costa coffee and the like generally are full of suits on a break or working, or people reading or waiting to meet up with someone. I never took my children to coffee shops when they were little. Maccy D's was more suited for them and there were plenty other kids around for them to interact with whose parents joined in. Same thing with restaurants. I only took mine once they knew how to sit at a table and behave and not run around. I didn't inflict my offspring on other people. I find that rude.

By that sentiment Viola if people with children go out, they should not be rude and inflict their child on someone else just because it's what the child wants!

He made a polite but definite statement that the OP took to be rude, subjective.

If he had said ?get your brat away from me? that would have been rude. But he didn?t say that, he said Do you mind!

Why should he feel any obligation to interact if he didn?t want to?

As I pointed out before you have no idea who or what this person?s life/views history is/was.

And I am not a child hater or an apologist I just don?t assume that the world revolves around me and mine.

Maybe that?s why Britain is becoming less friendly, because those of us who know and respect the rules of polite social interaction have encountered too many people who think that these rules don?t apply to them.

BTW I am not British, I grew up in one of those ?more? child friendly countries, and you were and I still see children out and about everywhere when I go home.
All of my DNs are brought along to restaurants etc. because they have learnt from a young age what is acceptable and what is not.

And they also know if they misbehave they will either be told off by who ever sees it be that by a family member or any other adult, or simply taken home by their parents.

I think the assumption that when people don't want to talk to OPC, it's the children they are irritated with is incorrect. I'm not annoyed with the kid, I'm annoyed with the parent to put me in the situation where I'm drawing my boundaries with the child, instead of the parent setting their child's boundaries. In my case I have to set my boundaries by leaving the coffee shop and finding another one, but this guy set his boundaries by saying something. IME if you say 'hello' to a 2 yo, even if you then look away, they carry on trying to talk to you, because you are clearly interested enough in them to talk. So you can either leave or be 'curt' or the parent can be more considerate...

And the assumption that we'd be happier if an adult interrupted us. I've said upthread that when blokes try to chat me up when I'm trying to work in coffee shops I find it v. annoying also. It's rude when a bloke talks to me when I'm obviously absorbed in my work, and it's rude when a parent doesn't keep their child at their own table in a coffee shop. And I wish I was rude enough to tell them so. It would save me a fortune in uneaten brownies...

YABU.

He wasn't rude, he just didn't sugar coat it. Presumably so he could cut short the entire encounter and get on with whatever he was doing. I'd have done the same, and have in the past.

"the boy gets up to wander around."

Thats where you lost me OP

Yours DS is not as fascinating to others as he is to you. If I wanted to go for coffee with kids, I'd have gone with my own thanks

yes of course Cherry.... I DEMAND that everyone prostrates themselves before children and allows them to trample all over their laptops and mobiles daily. While slobbering chocolate and rusks all over them. Talking incessantly as they do it. And FORCING adults to ENTERTAIN THEM in the process!! :D

No, actually, I just think children should be allowed to act like children in public without being the target of what is quite clearly rudeness. And I think that children should be treated kindly. And yes Britain is undoubtedly a meanminded dump (or maybe that's just London and the South East...where my parents live, people regularly even start conversations with children... my sons were too shocked to reply a couple of times :D)

Damsel I'd like to see that thread, could you link to it?

Chazs - yes I agree there is NOTHING wrong with wanting not to be disturbed by children in coffee shops.

But I assume if the OPs DS had come up to you and said "hello" you would not have reacted in the same way, you would have politely made it clear you did not want to be disturbed.

It's the WAY he spoke to the OP that is the problem, and I really don't think her DS did very much wrong in just saying "hello" - did he? Not enough to warrant the reaction he got anyway.

ffs bec. You would leave a coffee shop because a 2 year old said hello to you due to his feckless mother 'failing to set boundaries'???

Alternatively you could just nod, ignore him and go back to work.

how on earth do you handle it at work when colleagues speak to you out of turn? Selfish bastards... no boundaries set by their mums?

God, I despair for you lot, I really do.

But do they Psammead and domesticgoddess? Do children just pick it up by osmosis, or do they learn not to wander round chatting to strangers by their parents saying to them "Come over here, and don't bother the man", or by strangers rebuffing their attempts to speak to them? Surely, if every time a child went into a coffee shop, all the other customers there were super friendly and prepared to chat with the child as much as the child wanted, the child would learn that coffee shops are a place to go to chat with strangers.

As other people have said, other cultures are much more tolerant of children, and happy to chat with them. I would think it likely that those cultures are also far more likely to be the sort of places where adults will chat with strangers in a coffee shop.

Why is saying that a toddler should not be wandering around a place that has people carrying hot drinks that could potentially harm him, being a child hater?

The man didnt have to interact, he chose not to. He wasnt nice about it but wasnt rude either. I dont see that as being a child hater either.

For me the main issue was safety of the child, which is the OPs responsibility and imo she wasnt being very consiencious if he was being allowed to wander freely.

I still think the OP felt stupid when the man made it clear he expected her to not allow her child to bother people, and posted on here to feel vindicated.

Fail.

bec... I am speechless... 'a fortune in uneaten brownies' because the odd child said hello to you?!

the annoying blokes I can understand. Adults trying to start conversations don't tend to give up.

anyway back to adult work. Which I continue to do regardless of noise. Any of you lot thought of putting headphones on when you're out? Then you could maintain your own precious 'boundaries' just like teenagers do. Sheesh.

Damsel - now you appear to be saying that it is actually rude to take young children to any place that isn't Maccy D's or similar?! This is actually what I feared that some people think, and now I find out it's true! Wow.

BTW, I love how it has become common (on this thread at least!) to use the verb 'inflict' to describe the process of letting your child interact with strangers. Nice!

The only toddlers that approach me tend to have noses that need wiping.

So before you send your toddlers to mingle could you wipe their noses, please and thankyou. And their hands if possible

Headphones? Yep I do. I also have my nose stuck in a book. I can't say it anymore clearly that I do not want to be disturbed by anyone.

Well Thistledew, my kids have picked it up despite my obvious child-worshipping tendencies

My eldest is a friendly chatty person but doesn't go round talking to strangers. He grew up in London and he's picked up the prevailing 'closed' attitude, as we all have to (to our detriment I believe). As I said, he got a shock in Sheffield when adults were friendly and pleasant to him. (How sad is that for the crappy South East... the richest part of the UK can't even be pleasant to its children....)

that being said I did always keep them well away from lone men and younger people, who tend to be grumpy sods obsessed with their 'personal space' like the bizarre posters on here- and I didn't want my children being bothered by THEM and their issues :D