to think that having a settled newborn is bugger all to do with anything you have or haven't done?

[IcouldstillbeJoseph]

Obviously disregarding illness or feeding issues etc. I'm talking about the fact that some babies are just better at sleeping and being contented at the very begnning.

So therefore it is really bloody annoying to hear the smug parents come out with gems as to why they think their baby is more settled than others. My personal favourites are:

"i think its because we've been really pro-routine from the very beginning" - as if the parents of unsettled babies wouldn't dearly love to put their DC down at 10pm and have them drift off blissfully until some hours later. Difficult to be pro-fecking-routine when you can't put them down without them howling

"I think its because I was really chilled out during pregnancy" - right, of course that's it, even though your baby wasn't even breathing or aware of the world just yet it was definitely aware that you were really calm and has carried that over into its new little life

"i think it's because i only drink camomile tea"
"I think it's because I always went to bed at the same time every night when I was pregnant"

oh stop being so smug. Its nothing to do with you, its the luck of the draw.

DS was perfectly calm. And settled early on a great routine.

According to him.

He woke every 2-3 hours for a feed for the first eight months of his life. And STILL woke 2-3 times a night until I night-weaned him at one year old. I'd been back at work since he was 2 months old and all my friends with babies who slept (and longer maternity leave, gosh I was jealous of those women!) kept saying "how do you manage?" Gosh, I have no idea. I look back and absolutely have no clue how I did it. Especially without caffeine. But he just woke a lot, and fancied a little snackette to help him re-settled. I co-slept, tried to keep my sense of humour, and got a lot of sleep at weekends. It didn't last forever, but in no way was he a 'good sleeper.'

He was certainly a very contented, happy boy though!

He's nearly two, and we were wrestling on my bed yesterday. He landed head-first on my chest and then suddenly looked up as if struck by a thought: I remember this...and then he asked to nurse. I reminded him it's all gone. He was soon distracted by more tickling... my point is, we guided him (when we thought it was appropriate) towards no-feeds-at-night and towards putting himself back to sleep if he woke in the night (still haven't quite got that one) - but although you can nudge things a bit, I honestly believe some babies just wake a lot, some sleep a lot - same as people.

Erm, so, YANBU. incidentally, I was quite a hippy about the co-sleeping and breastfeeding, mainly due to ease/need for more sleep, and certainly we always responded when he cried. My parents were v. about that, but my mother, visiting this January, said after a week "I don't think I've ever heard him cry. How extraordinary." - I wanted to be all smug about how it was something I'd done, but the fact is, he's a cheerful chap really.

I'm currently tackling the sleep demon that is DS for the 17,342nd time. He's 2.9 and has slept through twice, two weeks ago.

DD1 was angelic, but at 8.6 the teenager is starting to rear it's ugly head. She slept through from 6 weeks.

DD2 was a nightmare to get to sleep, but once she was down that was it. She is 6.10 and the clingiest, whiniest child i've ever met. Lucky she's gorgeous!

I'm far more laid back with DS than i ever was with the girls, and it clearly makes no difference at all. :(

mindosa my DD2 was breastfed on demand for three years, she co-slept and was 'worn' for the first 5 weeks on medical advice to help maintain her body temperature.

Once she could be put down she continued to be a contented baby who consistently self soothed, slept in a cot and was happy to lie and watch the world go by.

You don't make babies more demanding by cuddling them and feeding them when they are hungry any more than you make them more independent by leaving them to cry.

I was reminded of this thread today when someone at work said (when I was saying how sensitive DS is to any noise and how he wakes very easily) that with your first baby you're so stressed it gets passed on to the baby, with the 2nd you get better and with the 3rd you're so laidback that the baby will sleep through anything

Yes DS is a very bad sleeper and wakes easily - but we have never tiptoed around him (as my workmate said we must do) and he's been living in a city centre his entire life yet still wakes if a motorbike revs its engine etc.

So YANBU.

Timandra -perhaps not your baby but anyone I know who practiced this type of parenting ends up sleep deprived and martyrd to an unsettled child. I bfed all mine, they didnt have to cry it out and they all slept and settled well. Its not cuddles and bfeeding that cause the problems, its mothers who dont connect their behaviour with their childs

Maybe the parents you saw carrying their babies round were doing it because the babies were unsettled and it was the only way to soothe them. Babies don't get needy just because they get carried round. In fact the opposite is far more the case. Children who don't get enough affection can become insecure and need more attention.

I hate it when mothers are pilloried for following their instincts and keeping their babies with them. It is good for them in so many ways in terms of emotional and physical development as well as safety and health.

I don't want anyone to feel like they should stop carrying their baby round with them because it might make them over-dependent. It doesn't. Some babies just need more parental time and attention than others and nobody should sit in judgement of those whose babies are more unsettled. They already feel stressed and guilty enough!

I think it's largely luck etc but sometimes knowledge helps...my ds didn't sleep well at all (reflux, tongue tie etc) and at 2.5 still wants us to sit with him whole he settles. But he was generally contented as long as held/entertained. My mil didn't really believe the absence of naps until the 1st time we visited her at about 6 week old and he was awake for 9 hours with 1 20 min snooze. And then basically up all night as well. Roll forward a year and we'd found that with some battling we had naps established and got to reasonable nights. He turned into a "clock baby" with short windows to get sleep happening. She then told me that my dh hadn't actually been "super easy" until she battled and got him into a click routine. I love her dearly and we get on well but I needed to know that at 6 weeks not 18 months!! Now pg with no.2 and braced in case we've another who prefers to be awake...

The first two slept 12 hours a night from 12 weeks old. I took all the credit.

The last one never slept through the night until she was 3.5, it was nothing to do with me.

Has anyone mentioned birth experience?

My mother has always maintained that cs babies (planned, not emcs) are often calmer as they haven't had to struggle through birth. Ds1 was born by Kielland's forceps after a long drugged u drip-induced induction and was an enraged SCREAMER with a little uptight body curled up like a louse for AGES and very sensitive to everything - nappy changes, baths etc. Ds2 is only one day old (!) but born in water and spontaneous vaginal delivery with only a bit of g and a at the end and his whole little self seems calmer.

It may all turn round but I am intrigued by it as a theory as it often seems to tally with the stories people tell of their baby's birth and early temperament.. and it makes sense to me it would.

How a baby is for really quite a long time is entirely to do with them and has naff all to do with parenting. Smuggy smuggington parents are a boring pain in the arse. I've had 4 babies and some have been settled and relatively easy, and others, not so. NO change in their parenting at x weeks of age (obviously later you adapt the method to the child a bit more). Being all smuggy smug is a luxury afforded to parents of one child imo. Most people don't get lucky twice. My smuggy smug sister certainly didn't.

YANBU! I love DS is dearly and he cracks me up laughing several times a day but he has been a hard work baby since the word go. As a newborn, he never slept through, he wanted to feed ALL the time and as soon as he got even the slightest bit mobile (I'm talking being able to roll over, let alone crawl/walk) he decided he no longer wanted to sit anywhere at all so taking him out anywhere was a nightmare. Now he's a real handful of a toddler, roars instead of speaking, squealing, flailing tantrums every 5 minutes, the whole works lol

And I was v much a hippy dippy mum with sleep machines, bedtime routines, no caffeine and lots of pregnancy meditation.

Now I'm slightly wiser and expecting DC2 in apprx 35 weeks from now, and just hoping that having got an alpha baby first time round the next one will be calm, placid and fond of sleeping

It IS total luck of the draw!

Babies after all are mini people, so just like us big people they come with a myriad of different personality traits, likes & dislikes.

Justing by your list of how it should be done according to your smug parent friends mentioned in your OP - I should not have had a chilled out contented baby - but for the most part I did -

she liked noise, loud music, she liked parties, she loved strangers, she hated routine & bar the first weeks she even liked her own space - she was an early talker & on moving her into her own room she even told us she was glad to go as WE were noisy

I'm not saying we were parents from hell, far from it I know I did a lot right, but I think the bigger part of it was just HER personality :)

Congrats thunks!

Have to say my first and fourth have been the worst. First would howl for literally hours into the night- dog tired but incapable of winding down despite all our best efforts. Throughout childhood he very rarely slept more than 11pm to 5am. Didn't even sleep through without waking till over 2 yo. Once he hit 16 it became impossible to get him out of bed.

DC4 still wakes up at night aged 2 y 10m nearly. She doesn't howl, just climbs into bed with us, gets put back in her own, rinse repeat several times a night. May have slept through for the last 3 nights but I'm not holding my breath or counting my unhatched chickens.

My all time 10 on the smugometer comment from bitchface neighbour, whose DS is 10 months oldere than our (clearly massively inferior) DD was, oh DS never cries, but that's because I can meet his needs... Yeah, we didn't bother meeting DD's needs, we preferred to listen to the howling! As our hugely patient and much loved GP said, one time when I pleaded with him to tell me what I was doing wrong... oh some babies just find it hard to be babies- they're great from about a year old. And he was spot on. DD cried, fed and fidgetted constantly - even before she was born (the fidgetting bit)! We went to hell and back because the longest she slept for was 40 minutes. And the screaming, I can still remember the screaming (she's nearly 2 now). But now she's walking and talking. She self soothes and sleeps through the night. She's an absolute delight and, whilst we have always loved her dearly, now we also love being with her! If yours is putting you through it, hang on in there. It's not you. And it will get better. Some little ones just need time to grow into themselves.

I do agree that a big part of how babies and children are is the personality but once born it all mixes with the experiences they have and there is no just nature and just nurture answer. Although I have not done anything very different with DS2 and DS3 they have had very different life experiences because they are DS2 and DS3. Not just my parenting but how they interact with their brothers and how our routine is completely different (the multiple school and playgroup runs etc).

The smugness though does drive me mad. On a slightly different note DS1 has a speech disorder. Whilst talking about his difficulties with a friends step mother she said that my friends daughter had such wonderful speech because people where always talking to her. Aaah so that was why DS1 has a speech disorder - we obviously never talked to him enough

Interesting theory of your Mothers thunks - despite a very stressful pregnancy, followed by her early months of my going back to work too soon & barely seeing her, then my taking ill & giving it all up, all the stress of a tribunal etc & early years where she fits in around us etc etc - all the stuff that some would have make her an uptight baby but she never was - far from it

• my own DDs birth does also fit the pattern you describe

Well, see I am so, so calm and so, so serene and organised, anyone who knows me will agree, that I am naturally a perfect mother and everything I do is naturally the right thing to do. It goes without saying that my 20 month old is the sort of baby I would boast about if I was given to smugness, but I am not, so i will just smile coyly and reach out and gently pat that angelic little cheek.

Not at all the sort of child who would wake at 1.50am on a weeknight... More the sort of child who would offer to make me a soothing hot beverage to help me sleep....

Because being a calm and serene mother also makes my babies advanced, clever, tall, athletic AND gets rid of ginger hair.

Just because I made the unorthodox decision to try to meet my baby's needs!

[angel emoticon]

The first three were fine, though DD1 wasn't much of a sleeper until she was about 13 months. DS and DD2 slept from about 8 months. They were agreeable, smiley little things, and their cries were -- I won't say music to my ears, but the decibel level was reasonable.

Then DD3 came along and I remembered the woman in the room across the corridor in the hospital when DS was born and how I had thanked my lucky stars that I didn't have a screecher like she had... DD3 catnapped fitfully and screamed the rest of the time. She slept through the night at the ripe old age of 2.5. When I found that was pregnant again with DD4, my mother asked me 'are you sure this is wise..?' But little DD4 was the most laid back baby ever and I decided that having any more would be tempting fate, so I quit while I was ahead.

I kept them all with me most of the time, co-slept with DD2, DD3 and DD4, breastfed for 12 months with DD1, 15 months with DS, 2 years with DD3, 3 years with DD4 and almost 4 years with DD4. They were all introduced to the same solids at around the same time (5-6 months) and all turned up their noses at different things.

I've had three good sleepers so far, and I'm not smug, I know I'm bloody lucky.

It IS the luck of the draw and not down to anything we've done. Yes we're pretty laid back parents and don't stress about getting up in the night if we have to.

DS is 7 weeks and 3am is his usual (and only) night feed

Long may it continue!

I also thinks its a lot easier to be laidback and unstressed if your baby is calm and sleeps well! I hit rock bottom recently with DS. I just dreaded bedtime and nights as I knew they would be awful. And they were. But after weeks of bad bedtimes we had a couple of decent ones and i was much more positive after that. And i know DS picks up pn my stress. But at the same time couldnt stop being stressed after months and months of awful nights.

It was also never knowing if it wotld take ten minutes or two hours to get him to sleep. If when he woke in the night itd be a five minute sooth or a 90 minute marathon. Very stressful. And still ongoing!

thunk I think it makes sense that birth experience affects them

I took both of mine to my chiropractor for cranial whatsit. I think she said how they were laying in the womb has an effect too. My first was forceps and that is bound to smart I reckon. Chiropractor spent time 'unwinding them'

Would also be interested to hear more about this

I put both of mine in their front to sleep; I resisted my mums advise for ages, to do this with dd1. It made a massive difference to her sleeping/soothing/contentedness

Sucky babies too, interest me; both of mine have been, dd2 was sucking on her top lip when she was born

YANBU dd1 was total Angel, had to wake her up to feed in first 6 weeks as she would happily have slept through ... dd2 doesn't seem to have read the manual. I could leave dd1 lying on a mat looking around for hours, dd2 wants to be held constantly.
Dd1 was forceps delivery after 40hr labour but totally unaffected, dd2 duced too, no forceps but was 4 wks early, osteopath thinks it was all a bit of a shock which has unsettled her.
My friend whose dds were born around the same time as mine has the opposite, tricky dd1 and angelic dd2. I gaze enviously at her dd2 gurgling happily on the sofa, but then i used my luck first time round.

"If you want to wear your baby, breastfeed on demand and co sleep then you shouldnt be shocked with a baby who needs constant holding, sleeps badly etc."

What bollocks. I started co-sleeping and wearing my PFB because her demanding personality required it - she was content as long as she was on me or feeding (hourly). It was a means to an end. Night and day like this for 18 months.

DS is 3 weeks old and has been worn/co-slept/BF on demand since birth because it's what I know ... and yet happily falls asleep on his own, is already sleeping longer stretches at night than my DD did before 18mo and is generally happy as long as you don't change his nappy. Completely different baby and I've done bugger all differently so far.

It's actually slightly annoying, because I don't have the same excuse to sit on my arse and avoid the housework.