to think that having a settled newborn is bugger all to do with anything you have or haven't done?

[IcouldstillbeJoseph]

Obviously disregarding illness or feeding issues etc. I'm talking about the fact that some babies are just better at sleeping and being contented at the very begnning.

So therefore it is really bloody annoying to hear the smug parents come out with gems as to why they think their baby is more settled than others. My personal favourites are:

"i think its because we've been really pro-routine from the very beginning" - as if the parents of unsettled babies wouldn't dearly love to put their DC down at 10pm and have them drift off blissfully until some hours later. Difficult to be pro-fecking-routine when you can't put them down without them howling

"I think its because I was really chilled out during pregnancy" - right, of course that's it, even though your baby wasn't even breathing or aware of the world just yet it was definitely aware that you were really calm and has carried that over into its new little life

"i think it's because i only drink camomile tea"
"I think it's because I always went to bed at the same time every night when I was pregnant"

oh stop being so smug. Its nothing to do with you, its the luck of the draw.

I agree with you OP!
My DD (pfb) never slept. Ever. I have never felt as tired as when i was up BFing her in the middle of the night.
The slightest noise/movement would wake her up and she didn't sleep through until she was nearly 2.

Now she is 3 and asks to go to bed if she's tired, drops off with ease at 7-8pm and will sleep soundly until 8-9am if left. A bomb going off wouldn't wake her! She has only had a couple of tantrums and is more of a sulker.
DS, by comparison, slept through at 1 week old (I didn't because I was fretting that something must be wrong with him!) from 7-7 and out himself into a napping routine that you could set your watch by. Unfortunately, as soon as we hit the weaning stage that went out the window and I've had months of broken sleep. Fingers crossed in the last week he has been sleeping through from 8-6 then BFing and sleeping for another hour. He already has occasional monster tantrums (16 months) which I was totally unprepared for and stood open mouthed as he flung himself around the bed the first time!
What I'm saying in a long winded way is, it's totally down to the child's personality IMO as I have been very similar with both of them.

I wonder what DC3 is going to be like...?

YANBU. Anyone who has lived through the trenches of reflux-induced screaming for months on end can testify it has mostly everything to do with the baby. My daughter and I "failed" sleep school. I figure if trained midwives and nurses could not get my 12-week-old daughter to sleep with any regularity over the course of a week, what hope did I have?

Slightly off topic but SIL's pfb started talking at 6 months. At 18 months, my pfb has just started uttering a couple of words. SIL has both directly and indirectly put this difference down to her superior style of parenting...

She has just had her second DC. I know it is terrible but I am hoping and waiting with baited breath that this one decides not to start talking until well into toddlerhood

YANBU. 2 dc's. Brought up in same house, by same laid back parents, in same parenting style. You could not have got 2 more different babies as far as sleep was concerned. DS was a chuffing nightmare and I weeped and weeped until he was 3, when he finally slept through with some regularity. Dd slept through like clockwork from 8 weeks, even teething didn't wake her.

Bizarrely as they have grown DS is the laid back one and Dd the little hurricane who causes havoc in her wake.

I think that there is a big chunk of 'luck of the drawer' plus a combination of the child's personality and the parents approach, and whether the two match.

My ds was a pretty easy baby, he came out with a four hour feeding routine (I demand fed but also timed the gap a few times) and was generally quite predictable in his needs and wishes. He liked to be swaddled, screamed a bit at bedtime and then dropped off in a couple of minutes. We used a blankie type comfort er (old sheet) and he sucked his thumb very early on. So we felt really quite confident and when I got accidentally pregnant and when he was eight months old we were very relaxed about the whle thing.

dd was frankly awful. Screamed for hours on end. Always wanted to be cuddled an wasn't content with stationary cuddling, she had to be walked or jiggled for hours late at night before she would go to sleep. All that second babies are easy crap really wound me up!

But if I'd been an attachment parent I suspect it would have been ds screaming and (possibly) dd happy.

Roll forward a few years and ds threw mega tantrums for years (to the extent that he was referred to a pead for possible AS) whereas dd was generally a real pleasure (apart from very picky feeding). Now they are coming up to their teens it's dd I worry about more.

All swings and roundabouts I guess, but I still think that first year of dd's life was my personal version of purgatory, and I don't care how many people say its all over so quick, it didn't bloody feel that way at the time!

All my DCs have been real "puddings" stayed where you left them, never tried to climb out of high chairs, never climbed up bookcases, etc.

I could have claimed that the reason the older two were in cots and high chairs for ages - till well over 3 was because "I have told them not to climb out and they obey me." But it truly never occurred to them to do that. DC3 did climb out of a cot in the night at about 2 - I was shocked to the core ! Didn't he know that children in our family just don't DO that sort of thing?

I think that by the time you are talking about 'children', then yes, parental input/approach does have an impact.

However, when you are talking about babies settling, I think it's largely luck of the draw.

My 2 are completely different personalities - one 'pudding' and one feisty little madam. However, they've both been really good sleepers. And that is purely luck.

If it was down to me at all, then that was luck too!

I do think, OP, that there is a certain amount of 'groundwork' you can put into caring for your newborn that may (I hope) help further down the line.

For instance, I didn't want to be looking for solutions in a years time for getting my DC to sleep in their own beds, so I never brought her into bed in the first place. I also wanted to help DD learn how to entertain herself. I did intend to only have one, so promoting self play / entertaining yourself was done with the bigger picture of her being 7,8,9,10 and being happy to play with other but also entertain herself. I have also used a routine as I feel it works best for me and DH as to knowing what she needs and when.

I do think, though, that not all babies are amenable to the above, but then, there are parents who wouldnt be amenable to the above.

As DD is only 6mo, I have yet to say how well the above has worked.

It does frustrate me slightly though when, if she turns out to sleep through, or is classed as an 'easy baby' that what I have done is seen as superfluous to it being all about the baby. Like my parenting has been like water off a ducks back. I think parenting does affect the baby.

YANBVU...but....
my pet peeve is the reverse! Parents who insist that children just "are who they are" and that their behaviour is just personality driven, nought to do with the parents' input (or lack thereof). Like folkgirl says above - that's children, not babies - but on the other hand, children come from babies, and obviously at some point environment begins to play as large a role as genetics and inborn character.

So I don't disagree with baby temperment being largely luck (and a degree of genetic predisposition), but certainly parenting can develop those predispositions in certain directions for better or worse.

I see smug parents, but I also see parents who abdicate responsibility by saying "what can you do? all babies are different!" even when there are clearly things they could do to achieve a different result. Two extremes, perhaps.

Its partly luck and partly parents' attitudes I think. DS looks like an unsettled baby from late afternoon until he (finally) drops off at 10pm. The first few times it happened we were at our wits end.

But then we realised this was his "grumpy time", that walks, feeds, baths etc will calm him for a while (ie until 2mins after they end) and to take it as "payment" for him sleeping for 6 hours in a go at 4 weeks old. So we just chill, put some (gentle rock) music on to sing to him or watch telly whilst rocking him and walking up and down, and cross our fingers that when he starts sleeping he will stay that way.

Other parents might take this as a failure to get him into a routine of sleeping from 7pm, but we just let his body clock take the lead (whilst trying to soothe to sleep because he looks bloody tired). And tbh I would rather he went down for his longest sleep of the night when I want to do likewise, it means our "adult time" is before DH goes to work, when DS is still in nighttime mode (waking every 3 hours from 4am-10am), but at least we're rested.

Sorry, I don't have time at the momment to read the whole thread, but I just wanted add this.

DD was nearly always a pretty chilled out baby. She put herself into a routine. She is generally a very nice little girl now, (who has her momments!) When she was little at least two midwives commented on her being chilled out, saying it was obviously because I was laid back and calm and she was picking it up from me. I'm bipolar and have panic attacks so I really doubt that!

Anyone who has had more than one child will tell you that they are VERY different. No two are the same and yes, I believe it is a lottery as to whether they'll sleep well or not. Some babies are higher maintenance than others and no amount of 'training' will change that.

Having read through this thread I think that people who believe that their parenting has created a baby who will self soothe and entertain themselves will believe it whatever the evidence to the contrary.

It's only when they get a second or third child and experience a baby who chooses not to comply that they realise how little effect they had the first time around.

Those of us who had a screaming, non-sleeping nightmare first time round are just phenomenally grateful if the second one comes out having read the books, knowing that bed is for sleeping in and parents need a break now and then.

3 kids, parented same way, were all very different so YANBU!

Having said that, the number of times I've seen a mother trying to settle a child and the cry clearly says its hungry/uncomfortable etc and you just want to well "just feed the kid, dammit" or something :)

Oh god, YANBU. Both my babies were uncontented (one still being uncontented at six months), despite never being put down and constantly fed and cuddled (so cuddler's comments were pretty smug and annoying). Them having reflux certainly didn't/doesn't help. Roll on toddlerhood, my dd was a fab easy toddler (pretty much all down to her personality), I hope it's the same this time!

This thread has been really reassuring for me - my DS is nearly 6 months old and I was hit with pretty awful PND at around 8 weeks, and would constantly have meltdowns, panic attacks etc. I felt completely out of control and desperately wanted to feel better as I was convinced that I was doing lasting damage to my boy, thinking that he would be picking up on my vibes. Thankfully, I feel so much better now (I still have my moments!) and he is the most gorgeous, happy little boy. Clearly nothing to do with how i was with him in the first couple of months!! I'd get well meaning advice about rigid routines etc and how they are the key to a contented baby. I actually feel that this contributed somewhat to me feeling so crap as I felt that I was failing him by just going a bit more with the flow. He naps well, only has one night feed and never really cries. I've just lucked out!

I think tat your basic point is right but I think the thread is a bit black and white to be honest.

I think that you can parent your child perfectly and still have a child who doesn't sleep. Sometimes there is nithing you can do .I had one who slept no more than four hours a night until he was three and I had done exactly the same with him as his elder brother who slept through from about six months.

But it is always worth thinking that what we do may have a positive impact isn't it? The idea that nothing we do will ever impact a child is a bit hopeless and negative IMHO.

And whilst I think there are smug arses who don't know simple good luck when they see it I do know looking back that my exhaustion and anxiety at DS2 not sleeping didn't help either of us. I think sometimes the 'try to be more relaxed, it worked with mine' is an inept attempt to be supportive.
Humans can't help offering advice when faced with difficulties or grief or problems when often the person just wants to talk or vent.

So yanbu to be really irritated. But yab a bit u in suggesting that parents never affect their Childs ability to settle and that comments made are always smug and self serving.

YANBU!!!! Absolutely yy! I had so little confidence in my parenting abilities with DS1 who cried constantly, was so super sensitive, didn't feed well at all and didn't sleep through til 18 months. Especially compared to others who could sit and have a coffeee at meet ups and not be jiggling a screaming baby with sweat pouring off my face while trying to appear calm!

Enter DS2 - fed like a dream, very contented, go anywhere, do anything, fit in with whatever routine, slept through from 9 weeks.

Its easy to be a relaxed-baby-will-fit-in-with-my-routines parent when you have a relaxed-fit-in-with-you temperament baby. Not all of them are and its mostly nature not nuture, especially early baby stage.

nipitinthebud oh, the sweaty jiggling. Yup, did that lots with DC1! It always seemed to be just me!

I think a bit of both - some babies seem cooey and contented from the moment they arrive and others are scratchy. Also some parents are relaxed and others are super-anxious. Plus there are all kinds of things like illness and wotnot to derail the best-laid plans.

Funnily enough I didn't realise my first-born was so placid until the second one came along...

UUggghhhhh!!!! I was that unbearably smug twat when I had PFB DS1. Exclusively breastfed for over a year, BLW, sling, blah di fucking blah, I was so up my own rec that I DESERVED taking down a peg or two.

Next pregnancy? Twins. Prem. Reflux. When PFB was only 20 months. Gone were my high ideals about how I was going to do it all exactly the same way as my doddle PFB. Within weeks I was bottle-propping, and begging for drugs to make them sleep, and to keep me awake! No amount of baby-led laidback stuff was going to get us anywhere, and one twin is just frankly, a tricky bugger! Fabulous, but tricky. Daily I'm astounded at how very very different they all are, and how up myself I was! If I'd had TrickyTwin first, I wouldn't have had any more!

bagofholly

we always counted ourselves lucky that DD1 did not reveal her true colours until DD2 was born 2.5 years later.

DD1 was quite a tricky baby, but she did sleep (at night at least). wouldnt sleep in the day, and was sick every feed for about 6 months... she then became the most appalling toddler while DD2 was the perfect baby.

nearly 16 years on, the tricky baby/appalling toddler is the nicest most well-adjusted teenager, and the perfect baby is also pretty nice but vvvv moody.

its a phase, it will pass, its a phase, it will pass ad bloody infinitum when they were small!