To be shocked that children don't know the Lords prayer anymore

[shaka12003]

Something that came up today whilst watching the jubilee celebrations. The church service came on and the Lords prayer was said my 2 dcs don't know it and havent been taught it in school.

AIBU to be shocked by this apparently I am as we now live in a political correct society and can't teach children these things.

That's Marlowe, not the Iliad!

I think Helen of Troy is a lovely story to know about, but I'm not convinced the Iliad in its entirety is the best way to learn it.

Don't lots of schools have books of Greek myths that include that story too? There are some lovely ones.

I had to say the prayer every morning at school and it wasn't a religious school either. I hated it and didn't do it. Just bowed my head. Glad they don't do it anymore.

Yes, FeministDragon, I do know it's Marlowe (I teach the stuff). I didn't say learning the Iliad in its entirety; just a resume of the plot so you can place the Achilles heel, and Hector and Andromache, and Dr Faustus' desire for Helen, and Schliemann's finding of Troy in context. My children are not required to have the entire ship's catalogue off by heart.

YABU

This is the same attitude that has parents saying 'They can learn to read at school' so never read a book with their children. Or not bothering to talk to them because it is society's job to teach them social skills.

If something was important to you, you would teach it. So it cannot be that important to you.

I love the Illiad.
Have you read Christopher Logue's version of it cory? War Music
The fact that it's Marlowe only proves that those stories and references are woven through Western culture.
Like the Odyssey.

OP - So you agree with this...

But you also say this....

My ds was taught TLP at school - it's not a religious school.

FWIW we learnt it in English and Latin as an exercise in learning something when I was at (a very secular school). I like it that I know it, but I wouldn't say it in a worship setting (and we were not expected to at school).

I don't think my kids know it, but they have been subjected to much more prayer in school than I was.

Fair enough, cory, I was just being cheeky (and I have Shakespeare in Love in my head). I will admit that the idea of learning the 'plot' of the Iliad strikes fear into my soul and I don't know many people who could do that ... come on, that is not the same as knowing a few episodes that have passed into cultural significance (not always from the horse's mouth, either).

I do think that the Iliad is a slightly odd source to go to for that story, for children, in the same way that I think insisting children should learn the Lord's Prayer by heart but not being prepared to teach it, is a little odd. If the OP said she was shocked her children learned nothing about Christianity, I'd be up in arms ... but the Lord's Prayer isn't the only way to do it.

EmsieRo Wed 06-Jun-12 08:29:19
"cory I completely agree with your point about learning things as part of a general, well-rounded education but I'm not sure that applies to learning and veing able to recite a prayer you don't believe in. I would have no problem with, say, my children studying thr bibe, the Koran, and other sacred texts at school, but I would have a big problem with them being taught to pray in a religion that is not their own or mine."

I think it should be taught like literature or history, not recited in a devotional setting, so I totally agree with you there. They'd still know it, but in a different way.

My suspicion is that for most people, stuff like the Iliad, the Odyssey or the Bible function rather like the LOTR for emsie ... you don't need to read or know the whole thing, but we get a sense of the 'good bits' mediated from culture in general.

That's the issue to worry about IMO - not a specific text, but, do children get a decent sense of context so if they do hear the Lord's Prayer, they'll understand more or less what that context is.

Basically, I would like my children to recognise phrases like "the power and the glory" if they hear them, and think ah yes, that's the Lord's prayer. Just like I want them to recognise "To be or not to be" or "England's green and pleasant land".

OP if you don't give enough of a toss about religion to send your kids to church or a church school then don't expect the non-church school you send them to to care about it more than you.

I think it's really interesting that so many people here have no religion at all...and think religion is a bad thing....from a purely academic point of view what do people imagine happens to a society that has no spiritual belief whatsoever?

thehouseonthecorner
they deal with reality?

I wouldn't be worried about a country that "grew out of spiritual belief"

Obviously a society that supresses belief is a different matter.

No way will I teach my children the words to a prayer (or any other verse) of religious control. Just look at how many wars have been fought through religion.

Besides, educated intelligence and religious is an oxy-moron, as far as I am concerned. They don't mix, though some educated scholars would argue this.

It is a parents responsibility to ensure their children have a religious education, if they wish them to have one.
I wanted my children to know the facts and make up their own minds, which they did.

They are both Atheists.

I don't think it's taught much. Oh well, if you want them to learn it, it's easy enough to teach it to them yourself, as part of whatever religious education you as their parent think they should have.

I don't think religion is a bad thing. I also don't think that society as a whole has no spiritual belief whatsoever.

I do think that many are less religious now than in years past, but I have always felt that once the shops were open on Sundays and more people have to work on the weekends that it had an impact on church attendance. People guard their free time over the weekend much more zealously and are often loathe to use it sitting in church. And obviously with more shops open, more people are simply working on Sunday and therefore cannot go to church services. There have always been some jobs (police, hospital, firefighters, care homes, etc) that are round the clock even on weekends, but combine the high cost of childcare with the ability of one parent to work on weekends (to avoid childcare), current times tend to make regular church attendance somewhat problematic for some.

Yes Cory - and both those phrases you mention are from what could arguably described as very religiously focussed texts; in the first, Hamlet agonises over the spiritual implications of taking his own life and is unable to carry it out because it is forbidden by God. The second is Blake's 'Jerusalem'.

It is very sad and worrying when I teach Hamlet to very bright A level students and they cannot grasp the concept of prayer( the Claudius scene) or indeed purgatory (the ghost). It has forced me to become an R.E teacher as well. And as for Paradise Lost? it becomes a veritable mountain to climb.

I can tell people from many years of personal experience that the fading understanding and awareness of Christianity and its texts has had a massively deleterious impact on childrens' understanding of English Literature. And there are many English teachers who are similarly ignorant. The Derek Walcott poem in the AQA Anthology a couple of years back ? I was the only member of my department who recognised that it was based on George Herbert's 'Love', which is a religious poem. Parents need to be alarmed - I certainly am.

Move to NI, we have no secular schools. My kids know all about Christianity, despite being withdrawn from RE.

Oh, and the RE curriculum in this country does not even mention religions other than Christianity until Key Stage 3, and it is presented in the form of instruction, not education - assuming that children and their families believe in a naice middle class white christian god.

My children are aware of the existence of the prayer, and they have attended services of several denominations for celebrations with friends. They are not, however, expected to mouth meaningless platitudes out of nostalgia and a sense that Fings Ain't Wot They Used To Be.

Why would you want religion-free or of other religions to recite something so meaningless to them?

I am actually a Christian, but that doesn't mean I think the school should take it upon themselves to decide that my children should be Christians- that isn't actually a decision I feel I should take upon myself either.

And fwiw I have lived in a society that was far more secular than this and it wasn't falling apart in any noticeable way; I would say moral and caring standards were at least as high.

It should therefore be taught as part of the 'history' syllabus. I object to it being taught separately (like it is something special) and in an unbalanced way i.e. like it is the truth.