AIBU to disagree with PTA buying defibrillator for primary school?

[Babylon1]

That's it really.

I'm on the governing body at local primary school and the PTA have decided they are going to purchase a defibrillator for the first aid kit.

This is really down to one member of the PTA having suffered a terrible loss due to congenital heart defect which was undiagnosed in a child. NOT a child at this school I hasten to add.

Now, as a governing body, we have a wish list of what we would ideally like the PTA to help purchase, and at the moment we are prioritising interactive whiteboards, a new reading scheme and some new phonics materials - resources that will be used EVERY day by the pupils.

The PTA are insistent in buying the defibrillator ASAP, and I am equally insistent that we neither want/need it for the following reasons:

1. The likelihood of it EVER being used is hopefully very very slim

1. There is an ambulance station with trained medics less than 5 mins away at normal driving pace. On blues and twos an ambulance would/could be present inside of two mins.

1. There has been no consultation with staff, yet 5 of them would be expected to be happy to be trained to administer the defibrillator if it

was required.

1. There has been no consultation with parents to ascertain if they would be happy for their DCs to be defibrillated at school by a non-professional medic (I certainly wouldn't be)

Before I would be in the slightest happy about this, I want a demo from the company providing the equipment on how easy it is to use, bearing in mind it is a paediatric defibrillator.

I want to know who will make the decision that the defibrillator is required - ie who is going to diagnose the child with a failing heart?

What happens if/when it goes wrong? Will the administrator of the defibrillator be held responsible?

So am I being unreasonable?? Really appreciate your thoughts here as I need to feed back to governors at next meeting.

Oh, I don't think you are wrong to start this thread, it has been very informative.

At the same time, you do need neutral advice from someone with the grounded knowledge in this field of medicine.

The defib will not go wrong ...

One thing to bear in mind though is that it's battery will need checking every day .. This is very very easy to do , but somebody will have to take responsibility for doing this on a daily basis , and they will need to sign to say that it has been done.

Nonap, not arguing with the need to call for help.bjust wondering whether using the defib has ever distracted from that, people aren't all calm in a crisis, most know to call 999,bt some may focus on the defrib and be distracted from their first instinct.

So much great information to feed back to school.
Thank you, I will keep checking this thread!

I'm actually going to print out the thread and take it to next governors mtg - a lot of questions are being answered and new ones arising.

I was already gobsmacked that you would post something like this that could totally identify your school, members of the PTA and the governing body.

But you're actually going to print this thread off and hold your hands up to it?

If you turned up to one of my FGBM's armed with a printed out thread like this, you'd be reported to the LA for breach of confidence and most definitely kicked off the Governing body.

It's one thing asking information about defibs and how they're used etc...but to put all this info on MN where the members of the PTA etc could quite easily read it, is quite another.

www.sadsuk.org is a useful site.

I do have knowledge in this area, but certainly you should investigate it further.

sadsuk.org have already been mentioned at school plus3, thank you.

WorraLibberty, really??
Can you explain why I have breached confidentiality? Am I not allowed to ask questions to try and satisfy my own mind?

I do think there is a wider issue here, which possibly your PTA has not directly addressed (apologies if I missed it, but here goes anyway).

Nothing - nothing - in life is without risk. Reducing risk often costs money. Money is finite. This is the point of organisations assessing the risks they face, and deciding which they address first.

Has your PTA properly assessed the risk of not buying the AED rather than not buying a whiteboard or phonics kit? I kind of think this is maybe your concern? Would you feel more comfortable with the issue if they had? Just a thought.

Did you know the place with the best chance of surviving a cardiac arrest is in a Vegas casino? 90% survival rate compared to a 25% survival rate in hospitals.

This is because security watch everyone very closely on cameras to cut down on card counting, cheating, etc. So they spot a cardiac arrest very quickly, they all are trained and have defibrillators to hand.

Seattle is the next best place as they have a high number of defibs in public places.

They are fool proof, mosT tAlk to you to tell you what to do.

CPR often isn't effective as people don't do it correctly, can't sustain it for more thAn a minute.

Agree that been near an ambulance station doesn't mean there will be one there. We had no available ambulances in our county the other night, was on the phone to 999 and none At all.

There was a piece on 5Live about this recently - the machine they had 'decided'; you stuck it on the chest and it told you if a shock was required. It sounded very easy to follow. I think it was Richard Bacon if you wanted to try and podcast?

It seems it's not so uncommon for sporty types to have heart attacks if they have an undetected defect. I can see your point about buying stuff all children can use... but it's potentially a child's life. Personally I'd prioritise that and work extra hard to fundraise the rest ASAP!

On the 'parent consultation' - would you really not want a non-MP to use it on your child if they were having a heart attack? Although as you say I think if you saw the thing in action you'd be less concerned. What if the pros round the corner were out attending?

Can the PTA I.e. the committee spend the money entirely as they see fit? Ours needs the Heads on side (they are joint Presidents of the PTA) so we wouldn't spend on something they didn't want.

The committee are presumably only a tiny proportion of the parents who contribute money and the need for staff involvement means you need to consult, surely?

I don't know enough to comment on the need for a defibrillator (and am quite relaxed about not having one at our school) but I would say YANBU in questioning this.

Everything in your OP breaches confidentiality Babylon

And yes, as I said of course you are allowed to ask questions but you didn't have to mention the school, the PTA, the school's wishlist, the staff and all the other things that went along with it.

Really, it should be done in a far more vague way that will get you the answers without possibly identifying the school and the PTA etc..

Springforward, it's not something I've ever really considered so was a bit when it was suggested, but I'm open to having my mind changed - I just need educating about them I guess.

I would get advice from your local cardiac unit and the BHF.

I would also look into asking the PTA to get quotes for 3 different machines (assuming there is more than one manufacturer of them) and maybe having demos of them - or at least your top two choices.

If nothing else, it will slow the PTA down briefly and make sure that if you are spending all this money on a defib machine you are getting one that is right for your school (eg can deal with young kids as well as adults, etc).

I'm a bit biased as dh is one of the lucky 20% that survived a heart attack when he was 40 - came completely out of the blue (whereas my dad didn't - only 59 and always seemed strong and healthy). Have subsequently discovered that there are other people in his family that have genetic heart problems (his older brother has subsequently had and survived a heart attack, other cousins haven't been as lucky) so I worry about my dc, especially as ds2 has had some cardiac issues.

I also had training on an automatic defib machine when I was a student - my student project involved getting elderly people to do some exercise and they made me do it, despite the fact that I was actually running the tests in a hospital, with a dedicated crash team with mega big defib machine that would be there within a couple of minutes, plus all the resources of a big london teaching hospital to wheel the patient to in moments. But it was still deemed important that I knew how to call the crash team and get the automated defib on in the first few moments (not that I ever needed to use it!). Even then (20 odd years ago), they were advanced enough to just stick the pads on in the right place and it would only shock if it needed to - the training was that it was better to stick it on if there was even a remote chance that it was needed as it would never do it if it wasn't needed. WHereas if it was needed but you hadn't got it on then it wasn't ever going to help - crash team would far prefer to get to the scene and discover a patient with the auto defib machine on them but not doing anything than nothing on them if you see what I mean.

Honestly, I can't believe that in this day and age it isn't mandatory for all schools (and libraries, shopping centres, council offices etc) to have one on the premises, for such a relatively small cost they provide a great service if you are one of the very unlucky very few people that need them.

Are there any other schools locally that also don't have them? Could you talk to them about it and see if you could do some joint fundraising and awareness, and maybe get a bulk discount if you are buying several of them...

Mind you, I also believe that all children should be taught first aid at school, simple stuff to start with in reception but an awareness of what to do and how to do it for all things right from early on.

YABU
They're already stated you hardly need any training to use one. We fundraiser at our tennis club for one recently. Loads of us attended an quick demo /training and it's so easy to use.

Its up to the PTA. Its good for the governors to have a wish list, but it is not a list of demands.

If the PTA have voted in favour of getting a defibrillator then that's what they should get. Even if its never used.

It seems an odd thing to get if there are other, more immediately needed things on the wish list. We had a sliding scale of things on our PTA's wishlist, and categories, whole school items (like whiteboards, projectors etc.,) play equipment (adventure course, wildlife area, veg patch, tyre course), subject specific items (pe equipment, maths stuff and the like) and more general life enhancing (or prolonging) items, which included swanky hand dryers and turning a small office into a sick bay which was well stocked with the basics (a defib would probably appear on that list at some point)... it seems a strange thing to prioritise, and I assume the PTA will also be paying for the training.

I wouldn't object, but I would wonder why it had taken priority over other things on a very long wish list. Its certainly 'worthy' enough to not object to.

WorraLiberty, we are a GB which has a very open relationship with head and PTA, I have said nothing that isn't already publicised in meeting minutes, which are available to all staff, parents and PTA members on request, unless an item is requested to be confidential, which this wasn't.

Lol every GB has an open relationship with the Head...that's what they're there for.

Ok, it's no skin off my nose but I really wouldn't turn up at a meeting with this thread printed off.

Oh and if your Head does read it, I'm sure he/she will tell you that any consultation with the staff or parents will be down to the Head anyway.

there is nothing in the op that identifies the school! given how many primary schools there are in the uk i would be amazed if the ops school was the only one with a pta considering buying a defribrilator!

I wouldn't take a print out but I would take lots of notes from the thread to take with you.

An ambulance station doesn't mean an ambulance is available.

Staff are trained to asess, call for help (999) and then use equipment available.

I've asked our local superstore to think about a defib after I watched their staff give dreadfull cpr to a customer just outside the store, I was watching because I dialled 999 and helped clear a near by school field for the HEMS to land.

Sorry for typos I can't find my glasses and I is tired.

I have no doubt the defib would have helped.

Thank you for your concern WorraLiberty, I shall keep it in mind.

So does anyone know if there is a defib which works for both adults and children??

5madthings Of course it does.

How many PTAs are there likely to be where one member has lost a child due to a congenital heart defect which was undiagnosed in a child and are at odds with their Governing body over buying a defibrillator?

In fact, I don't know any Primary schools in this Borough who even have a defib.

But anyway it doesn't matter as the OP has said her Govs/HT won't mind.

The AED will not trigger unless there is a shockable rhythm.

There is a low chance of an AED needing to be used (how many children at the school have ever had a cardiac arrest while at school?), but it it the PTA money, so up to the PTA what you want to spend it on.

One thing that you could do if you get a defib is to make the local community aware that it is there, so that if there was an arrest in a nearby shop etc someone could run to the school for the defib.

Um. WorraLiberty, I think you're totally off beat here. There's nothing identifying in the OP and what the OP has done is ask a very sensible question and get some very enlightening responses. In my experience that's precisely the role of a member of the GB. Definitely no contravention of confidentiality here in any 'reasonable' (i.e. legal) sense.

If you walked out a governor's meeting, went to a coffee shop, and discussed this issue with a friend who was a paramedic, you'd be more likely to breach confidentiality and would get a less broad and valuable response. As a governor you need to inform yourself as well as you can and IMHO this is a valid way of doing it. Whether the OP wants to actually print the post out (which highlights her own bias at the outset) is entirely up to her.

As a member of a governing body, I hope that my colleagues go about researching issues as rigorously as the OP if only.

I trained as a nurse and we were told that if someone's heart stopped and they were not in the hospital it is very difficult to bring them back with just CPR.

As has already been said, it won't shock the heart if it is in a normal rhythm

Also you would still do mouth to mouth, so would be able to tell if the airway was obstructed