AIBU to disagree with PTA buying defibrillator for primary school?

[Babylon1]

That's it really.

I'm on the governing body at local primary school and the PTA have decided they are going to purchase a defibrillator for the first aid kit.

This is really down to one member of the PTA having suffered a terrible loss due to congenital heart defect which was undiagnosed in a child. NOT a child at this school I hasten to add.

Now, as a governing body, we have a wish list of what we would ideally like the PTA to help purchase, and at the moment we are prioritising interactive whiteboards, a new reading scheme and some new phonics materials - resources that will be used EVERY day by the pupils.

The PTA are insistent in buying the defibrillator ASAP, and I am equally insistent that we neither want/need it for the following reasons:

1. The likelihood of it EVER being used is hopefully very very slim

1. There is an ambulance station with trained medics less than 5 mins away at normal driving pace. On blues and twos an ambulance would/could be present inside of two mins.

1. There has been no consultation with staff, yet 5 of them would be expected to be happy to be trained to administer the defibrillator if it

was required.

1. There has been no consultation with parents to ascertain if they would be happy for their DCs to be defibrillated at school by a non-professional medic (I certainly wouldn't be)

Before I would be in the slightest happy about this, I want a demo from the company providing the equipment on how easy it is to use, bearing in mind it is a paediatric defibrillator.

I want to know who will make the decision that the defibrillator is required - ie who is going to diagnose the child with a failing heart?

What happens if/when it goes wrong? Will the administrator of the defibrillator be held responsible?

So am I being unreasonable?? Really appreciate your thoughts here as I need to feed back to governors at next meeting.

SPB - an ambulance round the corner isn't enough. Survival rates for arrests occurring outside hospital are NOT good. Less than 10% will make it out of hospital assuming they make it that far. We should be putting this type of defib everywhere we can.

ah, ok. XP - saw the price.

£1500 - how many kids in the school - 250? 300? So that would be about £5 per child.

I would say it is worth it.

From what I understand, it is not just the saving of a life, it is getting the heart beating quicker, which could mean the difference between a full recovery and the child/adult being permanently damaged.

I think some people may have an unrealistic idea of how useful defibrillators can be. Yes, they undoubtedly do save lives, however a large majority of people will still die if they have a cardiac arrest, even with a defibrillator available. Even in hospital where a bunch of experts will come running, only around 20% of people having an arrest will leave hospital alive.

YABU - agree that every public place should have an AED. They are extremely simple to use, and won't administer a shock unless the heart is in ventricular fibrillation.

I work in a children's cardiac intensive care - we have recently had 3 children all of primary school age who collapsed at school. I recognise that I see the thin end of the wedge, but I genuinely can not see a single reason not to install these machines.

They cost £1500. Why don't you fund raise? Have a mufti day & all wear red, cake sale, raffle etc. Probably the easiest money ever raised.

Stealth maybe there are people who are at a high chance of having a cardiac arrest who do have one at home, I don't know.

But they really really can be the difference between life and death. So making sure there is access to one in places where there are lots of people each day makes sense, doesn't it?

You do need to check the AEDs are suitable for young children; normally they are not ideal to be used on the under 8s as they deliver a shock based on an adults body mass, so not on reception/y1/y2/much of y3s. They ideally need to be capable of energy adjustment for this age.

We did this recently. Where has the thread gone?

The number of children who go into shockable rhythms during a cardiac arrest are vanishingly small. Most children who suffer a cardiac arrest (especially at primary school age) do so for non cardiac reasons. Defibrillation would not help them.

Defibrillation is dangerous (staff have died in hospitals due to being shocked by accident during patient treatment). Automated defibrillators make this process safer but are not fool proof. Defibrillators in children's hospitals are used more for relatives / visitors than for the kids.

I don't really see the need for one in a primary school within easy reach of healthcare.

Focusing on good quality CPR training which can benefit everyone in the community would be a better use of the cash if it has to go towards something like this.

daisy I know the stats are scary, but the survival stats for someone just given chest compressions / mouth the mouth is much lower than 20%. I can't remember exactly what they are, but they are very low.

I want one!

So how many lives do defibs save outside of hospital, ie how effective are they?

Lots, if not all, of the staff are first aid trained with a good percentage of them having completed paediatric first aid including CPR.

Some of the responses here are very thought provoking and it is interesting to look at different view points - firstly I had no idea that an automated device would not work if a heart hasn't stopped, thereby taking away the need for diagnosis of a failing heart.

And do they ever get in the way of normal good practice, eg someone running off to get one first instead of calling 999, or checking for somethkg blocking airways?

IMO YAB a bit U, I'm afraid.

The defib will only shock if the heart is in the right rhythm to potentially benefit, so injuring someone is not an issue.

Because of the above, the operator does not need intensive training, so with the right instruction the existing first aiders could use it.

The ambulance station may be 5 minutes away, but minutes count, and there may not be a vehicle available to come straight away.

£1500 is not very much money, in the context of a school budget.

If I were you, I would phone your local cardiac unit and ask what they think.

Here on MN very few of us are experts on this, and we are all answering based on our emotions - the thought of our child collapsing and dying because someone from the PTA didn't want to pay £1500 for a defibrillator.

You need expert advice.

Exactly.mme
Has there ever been a case of someone trying that instead of calling 999?

Wow, some amazing posts here.

I'm actually going to print out the thread and take it to next governors mtg - a lot of questions are being answered and new ones arising.

I too love MN - didn't realise this had been done before, if anyone can link the thread, that would be great.

Re: first aiders going for the AED first - they are trained to assess first, summon help if required, then act. I would not be concerned about that TBH.

Yes but these can be used by anyone

I would have shared some of your concerns until a few weeks ago OP but then a friend of mine went to a session about this (can't say much about who or why but it would have been "pucker" and she is not daft, and it was delivered by experts on a mission to save young lives, not the manufacturers ... ) and she said she had her eyes well and truly opened by it. Yes, you have to know how to use one, but school staff could be easily trained - you definitely don't have to be a doctor or medical professional (which I didn't know but apparently the case) . More young, seemingly fit, children and young adults die on school sports fields etc than any of us want to think about who could have been saved . It wouldn't be hard to ensure the school had a model suitable for children.

I think you need some medical input, hopefully someone will be along here who can provide but if not, get some medical input locally - school nurse/GP etc. Please don't dismiss it without some proper advice (ie not your personal uninformed fears - don't mean to be harsh).

I think the op is asking all the right questions Amd getting reassuring answers. Doesn't mean she was wrong to question in the first place at all :)

Yabu for the following reasons ...

These defibs are extremely easy to use - they have them in shopping centres.
The machine tells you what to do every step of the way.
In absolutely no way do you need to be "medically" trained to use one.

The defib interprets whether a heart rythm is shockable .

It absolutely will not shock somebody in heart failure .

Yes there may be an ambulance station 2 minutes away - but likelihood of somebody surviving a cardiac arrest is greatly affected by them being shocked ASAP.

MmeLindor, I too have based my decision on my emotions, however I am not completely closed to the idea, but I need the questions answering and the facts providing - which for some reason the PTA seem unwilling to do.

Obviously what they choose to spend the money on is up to them, but surely there needs to be sons consultation with parents/staff beforehand?

Out PTA asks us for our wish list each year and we agree what we will work towards with the various fundraisers etc - this year we agreed whiteboards and reading / phonics materials, but then the PTA member suggested the defib and if has gone from there really .

Stealth having access to a defib doesn't stop you from calling 999. If someone has collapsed, whether the AED shocks them or not, the paramedics still need to be called, I'd hope the school staff would have the sense to know that!

Yes OP, I take your point, but AEDs won't shock unless the heart is in the right rhythm so the risk of delivering a reckless shock is nil, as I understand it.

The training is quick, there is no real reason why every staff member couldn't be trained in its use.

Just for the record, I really appreciate the input here and I don't have a problem at all with others thinking I am being unreasonable. I wouldn't have asked if I did