AIBU to disagree with PTA buying defibrillator for primary school?

[Babylon1]

That's it really.

I'm on the governing body at local primary school and the PTA have decided they are going to purchase a defibrillator for the first aid kit.

This is really down to one member of the PTA having suffered a terrible loss due to congenital heart defect which was undiagnosed in a child. NOT a child at this school I hasten to add.

Now, as a governing body, we have a wish list of what we would ideally like the PTA to help purchase, and at the moment we are prioritising interactive whiteboards, a new reading scheme and some new phonics materials - resources that will be used EVERY day by the pupils.

The PTA are insistent in buying the defibrillator ASAP, and I am equally insistent that we neither want/need it for the following reasons:

1. The likelihood of it EVER being used is hopefully very very slim

1. There is an ambulance station with trained medics less than 5 mins away at normal driving pace. On blues and twos an ambulance would/could be present inside of two mins.

1. There has been no consultation with staff, yet 5 of them would be expected to be happy to be trained to administer the defibrillator if it

was required.

1. There has been no consultation with parents to ascertain if they would be happy for their DCs to be defibrillated at school by a non-professional medic (I certainly wouldn't be)

Before I would be in the slightest happy about this, I want a demo from the company providing the equipment on how easy it is to use, bearing in mind it is a paediatric defibrillator.

I want to know who will make the decision that the defibrillator is required - ie who is going to diagnose the child with a failing heart?

What happens if/when it goes wrong? Will the administrator of the defibrillator be held responsible?

So am I being unreasonable?? Really appreciate your thoughts here as I need to feed back to governors at next meeting.

What Libraries said. and it irks me because it is ridiculous that people keep answering an OP that has LOOOONG been answered, done and dusted, finished, resolved - waste of everyone's time.

And because it's 2am here and there's really not a lot else I could be doing at this hour apart from sleeping, which is a lot MORE boring.

Professional MNers - how the fuck do I apply?

Cpr is better than nothing but not as good as a defib

In cases like this minutes count. In order to resuscitate someone I would want that defib there within minutes. Waiting for an ambulance will kill people. The ambulance service are on their knees. It's simple- would you rather your child was dead than let someone (- and anyone can use a defib - no training required) try to save their life. Really that's the choice

The message is as valid today as it was 3 years ago

We have one at work that's 'automatic' all the user had to do is apply the pads to the chest, the definitely then checks for a heartbeat and gives a warning before sending appropriate shock so no margin for error.

I can understand your reasons but I think they should be everywhere so YABU

at this being a zombie thread, serves me right for only reading the first 5 pages!

I haven't rtft but I recently took a Red Cross First Aid course for new parents, and the trainer said that anyone can use a defibrillator. You don't need training. If someone's heart stops in a public place, and there is a defibrillator to hand, anyone can just grab it and use it. I doubt the Red Cross would be spreading that message if it were possible to cause serious damage.

Oh, great. Zombie thread...

FFS. Who got this back!

I'm repeating myself as my original posts are pages back.

Cardiac arrests can be divided into two types - ones that should be treated with defibrillation (shockable arrests)and ones that shouldn't (non shockable)

Primary school aged children virtually never have defibrillator responsive cardiac arrests. I work primarily in paediatrics and in fifteen years of frontline clinical work including two stints on a paediatric cardiac intensive care unit I have only ever shocked ONE child. I have however looked after multiple children who requird bystander CPR several of whom died because it wasn't given soon enough or effectively enough.

Adults are a totally different ball game though. They are much more likely to have a shockable arrest.

So basically a defib in a primary school is realistically never going to save a child's life but it might help a staff member or an adult visitor,

What improves outcome after cardiac arrest?

For those with non shockable rhythms the best way to improve outcome is to deliver good CPR - this aim of CPR is to maintain oxygen supply to the brain and other viral organs. Delivering good CPR needs training and regular practice. Then when you get specialised help addressing the causes of the cardiac arrest is the only definitive treatment and the way to save lives.

For people who have a shockable cardiac arrest early application of a defib is crucial. If one isn't available good CPR is important but time to first shock influences outcome.

What concerns me in a community based paediatric cardiac arrest is that the first aiders would be distracted by the defib from delivering good CPR as that is what is overwelmingly going to affect outcome.

We spend a great deal of effort during hospital resusc training in getting healthcare professionals not to interrupt their CPR to faff with the defib/ do pulse checks etc. I am not convinced that lay people will behave any differently.

AEDs are easy to use and are set up to only shock shockable rhythms but touch the patient while the shock is being delivered and you too will get a shock. I've seen it done by highly trained professionals.....so care does need to be shown when pressing the big green shock button.

Having said all that a number of hospitals have gone over to AEDs to encourage non medical staff to initiate defibrillation because as I've stated above for a shockable cardiac arrest time to first shock really influences outcome.

Therefore a defib in a primary school is really only there for the staff and adult visitors. Don't kid yourselves otherwise!

If a school wanted to spend money in this way all power to them but I personally think establishing regular CPR training for staff and pupils would be more likely to save a life long term....

Having waited for an ambulance that came too late I would be all for getting one of these for every school.

This thread maybe a zombie (long dead and gone) but the sheer terror of SADS and SIDS certainly has not. The subject is every bit as important as when the thread was created.
Heartily sorry for everyones losses

I really don't know enough about them to make any judgment.

One was recently purchased by the parish council for our town and is in a secure display case in the centre. I don't know who is qualified to use it or really how it works.

Note to self to go and have a closer look when next in town.

The MESSAGE might be valid but responding to the long-gone OP and telling her she is BU is completely wasted.

If you WANT to start a new thread about defibs in schools (which, btw, I think is a great idea) then by all means do so - but there is little point in keeping bashing an OP from 3.5 years ago!

Oh very fair and valid comment, Which.

I think you are being unreasonable. This comment specifically, you said "There has been no consultation with parents to ascertain if they would be happy for their DCs to be defibrillated at school by a non-professional medic (I certainly wouldn't be)"

Most of the time it's sensible that you don't want non qualified people performing medical procedures on you. But that's because you have the luxury of time and you can go and see someone who is qualified and have them do the procedure. You don't have such a luxury when the heart stops. If your childs heart stops then the window in which they can be revived is very small. Have you heard of the phrase any port in a storm? It's not ideal but if it's a choice between allowing your child to die for sure, or allowing a non professional medic to perform something which might revive them, why wouldn't you go for the second choice?

FFS! The OP is LONG GONE - this thread was posted THREE AND HALF YEARS AGO.

I will never understand why some mn'ers get themselves so wound up about people bumping up old threads? To still be clicking on the thread to bitch at people who haven't had time to read all 28 pages.... probably says a lot actually. I personally found this thread really interesting, the date of the op has no bearing on that. I think some people need to calm themselves down, after all they don't want to end up needing a defib themselves!

"I will never understand why some mn'ers get themselves so wound up about people bumping up old threads?"

It's because MN isn't other forums, and it's generally bad form here to bump an old thread. And it comes down to whether you like MN as it is, or if you prefer the norms of other forums.

It's being discussed in Site Issues: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2514321-Why-on-earth-is-this-thread-in-Trending

MNHQ have said they will be considering a lock for old threads, so that this cannot happen again: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2513911-Locking-old-threads

Discussing defibs = good idea.
Telling the OP from 3.5y ago she IBU - real waste of fucking time.
Bumping the thread again by commenting to tell the OP from 3.5y ago that she IBU, thereby putting it back in "trending" - really fucking annoying.
People who only read the OP and CBA to even read all the OP's posts (easily done with highlighting, look in Customise) = lazy and rude.

Well said missduke some nasty people on here. They are so annoyed we made a mistake but quite happy to sit on here waiting to pounce so they can correct us all and waste even more of their time.

YABU defibs are idiot proof and can save lives.

Far too many people die because defibs were not available.

Where is the zombie alert on the thread?

From the OP - "I want to know who will make the decision that the defibrillator is required - ie who is going to diagnose the child with a failing heart?"

Well, the situation in which a defrib is used - what you call a "failing heart" is pretty easy to diagnose. The child would be dead without a pulse.

There is literally no way using a defrib, even incorrectly, which would be bad (unless of course you zapped yourself, and that's easy to avoid happening - don't touch the child while the machine zaps!) because using it, even if the pads aren't on properly, is always better than doing nothing!