AIBU to disagree with PTA buying defibrillator for primary school?

[Babylon1]

That's it really.

I'm on the governing body at local primary school and the PTA have decided they are going to purchase a defibrillator for the first aid kit.

This is really down to one member of the PTA having suffered a terrible loss due to congenital heart defect which was undiagnosed in a child. NOT a child at this school I hasten to add.

Now, as a governing body, we have a wish list of what we would ideally like the PTA to help purchase, and at the moment we are prioritising interactive whiteboards, a new reading scheme and some new phonics materials - resources that will be used EVERY day by the pupils.

The PTA are insistent in buying the defibrillator ASAP, and I am equally insistent that we neither want/need it for the following reasons:

1. The likelihood of it EVER being used is hopefully very very slim

1. There is an ambulance station with trained medics less than 5 mins away at normal driving pace. On blues and twos an ambulance would/could be present inside of two mins.

1. There has been no consultation with staff, yet 5 of them would be expected to be happy to be trained to administer the defibrillator if it

was required.

1. There has been no consultation with parents to ascertain if they would be happy for their DCs to be defibrillated at school by a non-professional medic (I certainly wouldn't be)

Before I would be in the slightest happy about this, I want a demo from the company providing the equipment on how easy it is to use, bearing in mind it is a paediatric defibrillator.

I want to know who will make the decision that the defibrillator is required - ie who is going to diagnose the child with a failing heart?

What happens if/when it goes wrong? Will the administrator of the defibrillator be held responsible?

So am I being unreasonable?? Really appreciate your thoughts here as I need to feed back to governors at next meeting.

By no means do I say this replaces the ambulance service. It doesn't. It works alongside. You ring the ambulance as soon as you realise they aren't breathing. Then get the defib. Like I said minutes are crucial, they can mean the difference between a full recovery or brain damage. Or death.

YANBU. I think your points are very sensible. You also need to bear in mind the time and money it takes not only to initially train staff, but to regularly train them to keep them competant, and to keep a defib serviced and usable.

They are undoubtedly life saving pieces of kit in certain circumstances but are useless in others. From a percentage point of view, that money should be put into training EVERY SINGLE member of staff and EVERY SINGLE student in basic life support methods i.e. CPR. A much better use of the money IMO, without suggesting that saving a life isn't important.

there may be an ambulance station close by, but what if they are all out on call, what if there is a strike.. giving this more thought from my first post, and after reading how easy they are to use from other posters, I would say that perhaps it would be something that should be on site. Seconds count when a heart has stopped. A defib could be used in the time it takes to get through to 999, who then have to despatch an ambulance, which all takes up precious time..

Actually thinking about it what is the LEA's standpoint on this? I'd hope that there was some centralised thinking re: health and safety and the levels that staff need to be trained at. (And I'd hope that the LEA would think a defib in every school was a good idea though I can see the cost implications in this).

The BHF grants sound interesting though.

Please don't think that just because the ambulance station is just around the corner that it will be there in time. We recently waited 40 minutes for a category A ambulance when dd had an asthma attack revently. She was blue and fighting for every breath. Control knew we were waiting but all the ambulances in our area were busy.

We had a choking at the school I work in, the child went into respiratory arrest. Luckily us first aiders got her started again but that incident taught me how precious life is and how quickly things happen. Would I support the purchase of a defib that might never be needed? Absolutely I would.

Do you all have them in your homes?

This type of defib can be operated by anybody. It won't shock if you aren't in a shockable rhythm.
Your PTA member wants to buy something which could save a life.
I agree public buildings should have them. My dcs primary school lost a much love classroom assistant a few years ago. A woman in her late forties, she was in no way high risk for a heart attack. She collapsed during a training day. The school is in the centre of the city, less than 1/4 mile from the hospital. They got her to hospital but she died in the night. Time is heart muscle. Buy the defib.

Loads of non medical staff are trained to use them, such as airline cabin crew, and I would be happy for such a person to use one on my child if necessary. I know an ambulance is not an option at 30'000 feet but I mean this as an example of these machines being straightforward enough for any trained person to use safely.

Seconds count, and those couple of minutes waiting for an ambulance could be the difference between life, death or brain damage.

The ambulance station may be close by but what is the chance of it actually being in the station if needed. In our area we are very short on ambulances. The chance of me ringing one and it being two mins down the road are slim

I have mixed feelings about this. Defibrillators can save lives - they aren't used when a heart is 'failing', they are mainly for when a heart has stopped. So 'diagnosis' involves checking for a pulse and breathing. If someone's heart has stopped and they do not get instant CPR and access to a defibrillator within minutes, then their chances of survival are minuscule.

I presume the kind of thing your school is looking at is an Automated External Defibrillator, which is designed to be used by people with little or no training - in some countries you see them everywhere, on train platforms,in shopping centres & hotels etc, for anyone to use in an emergency. The 'automated ' bit means that they actually check for heart rhythms and only operate if the heart has stopped or has gone into a highly dangerous rhythm. So yes, if my child collapsed at school due to an apparent cardiac arrest, I would be happy for anyone to use a defibrillator on them, since it could be their only chance of survival.

If you were talking about a large secondary school with sports facilities on site I would say absolutely it would be a good idea to go ahead, as dozens of adolescents die of undiagnosed heart conditions every year, often during or just after taking part in sports. However, the chances of it being needed for a child at a primary school are tiny, as these heart problems tend to show up in adolescence rather than earlier. I expect an AED is much more likely to be needed for a member of staff or a visitor than for one of the children.

In your case, as a primary school with an ambulance station so near by, I might wonder if the money might be better spent on annual first aid and CPR training for all members of staff.

For a thousand pounds, I'd say buy one.

Do you all have them in your homes and one in each room? If not, why not?
And those people saying we can't put a price on health and safety - we have to, we do it every day.

Ok, I'm struggling to keep up with all the responses so will try to answer ad many as I can....

Thank you all for the answers/thoughts/ info, there's s lot of new stuff which we haven't been informed of.

We were told they are foolproof, but not how they are foolproof IYSWIM which is why I am suggesting a demo from the company providing it. I am happy to have pads attached to me and be their volunteer.

If I was happy with it being foolproof I'd be more inclined to agree to it being used if my DCs needed it.

Cost is about £1500 + vat and approx £200 per year for training updates. Not massively costly, that money would supply 4 classes with interactive whiteboards or a new reading scheme and phonics resources easily.... But it isn't the cost that bothers me.

Stealth what a daft question.

We're talking about places which have many people in, many chances for people to fall ill

If I could afford one I'd have one!

Yes we do it everyday, but we do what we can to prevent it and make it easier. Which is what this would do.

My first thought was that YANBU if the thing is going to be an expensive gadget that people are frightened to touch.

However it sounds as if the right one (the AED mentioned above) might be worth having.

I love MN

Of course we don't all have them in our homes, but there is a very strong argument for having them in public places where they can be accessed by anyone in an emergency. The cost per person to have one in every home would be prohibitive, but the cost per person to have one in a school/workplace/ shopping centre or wherever is more reasonable.

Babylon - they ARE foolproof. We have a couple at work. I work in a hospital. We have a Crash team and crash trollies all over the place and we also have these and anybody could use them if needed.

But I'm being told you can't put a price on safety and that an ambulance station 5 mins away isn't safe enough. Presumably that applies to people at home as well as school or workplace.
I'm convinced about these things btw, I just do wonder whether some people are too quick to jump on the "no risk whatever the cost" bandwagon without considering the huge compromises they make each day.

To be honest, I didn't even realise the governors had such a say in what the PTA spent their money on. Surely if you want interactive whiteboards you should juggle your budget accordingly rather than put pressure on the PTA to fund it.

Do you know if the ambulance station is manned 24 hours? Not every station is, some are used as part time stations.

A defib is a very easy piece of kit to use and training is only an hour or 2.

The 999 EMD will ask if there is a defib on scene & advse you if they want it to be used.

A user will not be sued for helping the ambulance service on their advice to use the defib.

As a mother of a child with a heart defect and having 2 children die of heart conditions last year, one at our school and one at the senior school opposite a defib would be worth it's weight in phonics.

Personally I think both YABU and YANBU...

I think that the purchase may be worthwhile, but is too significant in terms of staff/cost commitment etc to be rushed into and your questions should be answered before the commitment is made.

How much does a defibrillator cost?

But, in a real 'situation', would having it be a waste of time? What I mean is, when DS was briefly on medication at school I had to go in each day & give it to him because of school policy - no-one would take the responsibility for ensuring that he had the correct dose - some elf/safety bollox. Would it be the case that no-one would take responsibility & want to leave it to the professionals?

So why do people not buy them.for home? I realise they're expensive but if its literally life and death...

The main thing is they wont work unless they are required i.e the heart needs put back into a normal rhythm, I think a lot of people are not aware of this if they think "something can go wrong" or they "damage" something. So if the heart is not needing it - it simply wont work.