AIBU to disagree with PTA buying defibrillator for primary school?

[Babylon1]

That's it really.

I'm on the governing body at local primary school and the PTA have decided they are going to purchase a defibrillator for the first aid kit.

This is really down to one member of the PTA having suffered a terrible loss due to congenital heart defect which was undiagnosed in a child. NOT a child at this school I hasten to add.

Now, as a governing body, we have a wish list of what we would ideally like the PTA to help purchase, and at the moment we are prioritising interactive whiteboards, a new reading scheme and some new phonics materials - resources that will be used EVERY day by the pupils.

The PTA are insistent in buying the defibrillator ASAP, and I am equally insistent that we neither want/need it for the following reasons:

1. The likelihood of it EVER being used is hopefully very very slim

1. There is an ambulance station with trained medics less than 5 mins away at normal driving pace. On blues and twos an ambulance would/could be present inside of two mins.

1. There has been no consultation with staff, yet 5 of them would be expected to be happy to be trained to administer the defibrillator if it

was required.

1. There has been no consultation with parents to ascertain if they would be happy for their DCs to be defibrillated at school by a non-professional medic (I certainly wouldn't be)

Before I would be in the slightest happy about this, I want a demo from the company providing the equipment on how easy it is to use, bearing in mind it is a paediatric defibrillator.

I want to know who will make the decision that the defibrillator is required - ie who is going to diagnose the child with a failing heart?

What happens if/when it goes wrong? Will the administrator of the defibrillator be held responsible?

So am I being unreasonable?? Really appreciate your thoughts here as I need to feed back to governors at next meeting.

Another one here who's had to do CPR on one collapse before we had defibs readily available and was unsuccessful, and has since actually had to use one on a child at the scene of a road accident . First time I ever had to . Followed the instructions to the letter , and it actually worked . Never been so relieved in all my life, but still bloody glad when hems turned up. They really really are foolproof. They have to be , so anyone can use them . Even me, in the face of a distressed crowd of onlookers , all looking to me for guidance.

I' d rather let even an untrained person use a defib on one of my kids , rather than have them wait for an ambulance whilst doing CPR . Their survival odds would still be better , and as many have said before , if the defib detects a reliable and normal rhythm , it simply will not work .

OP, just wanted to give you my experience of "blue light" response times - I used to work on 999 response (police) and I would say it probably takes 5 minutes from a call being received to being allocated to a crew and that crew being on their way to the job. That's on a Sunday morning when we're all in the nick doing paperwork and cleaning the cars. On a busy shift that response time could be longer - our goal is to have a grade one emergency call attended within 15 minutes. I think that's reasonably standard. 15 minutes is a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time with a child in a cardiac emergency.
If your ambulance station is as understaffed as most of them are, I have to say that I would not be relying on "we're next to the ambulance station" as aprime argument against having a defib. It only takes a few calls for all the ambulances to be unavailable

Babylon - there is some interesting information which may be of use to you at www.communityheartbeat.org.uk

And I really cannot see how asking "please tell me the benefits of a defibrillator in a primary school setting" breaches anyone's confidentiality.

A defib is used if someone isn't breathing. That isn't hard to tell.

No it isn't. It's used when the heart is fibrillating. Actually the kind found in hospitals can also be used as a temporary pacemaker, to change certain heart rhythms to normal sinus rhythm

YANBU

The type of congenital heart defect that can cause sudden death on a playing field is incredibly rare, something like 0.005% of the population. It would make more sense to fund echos to screen for this, then you would know if any child in the school had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy and they could be fitted with an inplantable defib.

Also a peadiatric defib? So if an adult in the school arrests you cannot defib them? crazy.

These automatic defibs do work but not as well as the propper ones. They are automatic so you stick the defib pads on and stand back - the machine does the rest - but a 'propper' defib such as the ambulances carry the operator puts presure on the paddles increasing efficacy.

Also you need to check it is working on a daily basis and make sure the pads are 'indate' - they have a gel surface which needs to remain moist to work properly.

All staff and students will need some basic training - ie no one and nothing touching the person being defibbed, which is easier said than done.

Can a defib be dangerous if wrongly administered?
yes, which is why the automatic ones have only a limmited function. Even properly used you can end up with burns.

OK OP here are your arguments to take into the next meeting

1. Adults are more likley to need a defib than children, why have just a peadiatric defib? What about little jonny's gran, you have adefib you can't use if she arrests?

2. if mis used it can be incredibly dangerous - children playing with it could kill each other, how are you going to keep it accessable but not where children can access it?

3. screening would make more sense and is more likly to save lives

4. all staff and children need basic training to keep them safe if it is used - can you train a 5 year old what to do to keep themselves safe?

5. The chances of it being used at all are slim, yet there are upkeep costs, such as rreplacing pads and servicing - has that been taken into account?

6. what happens if you defib a child and they die? Have you got insurance to cover that?

Why don't you get a defib that can work for adults and children? They distinguish between the two by which PADS are attached to the defib.

My 16yr old is red cross qualified to use one (he is a lifeguard) he says that a young child could follow the instructions because they are so straightforward.

He recently went to a free screening by a local charity for sudden cardiac arrest susceptability. They screen about 1000 kids in a day and usually catch 3-5 who are definitely at risk and a further 11 or so who need further screening. The family who started the charity did so because their high school athlete dropped dead at home while sorting clothes for his family holiday. His mum had been gone 20 minutes. Apparently AEDs are the only useful thing that can help in those circumstances :((

Hopefully it will never ever be used and feel like a waste of money, but if that is so then it means noone has had to face what that family did.

Just read the message above me... my son says here that they use the same AEDs here for adults and kids, if the kids are small and don't have the infant pads they are trained to put them on the front and back so there is more space.

Oh and most of DSs high school teachers have promethian boards and he says that only one of them in two years has used it regularly for what it is meant for. Even then that teacher has NEVER used half of the features. Most of them use it as a projector he says. His vote (having both in school) would be for the AED hands down. He says the promethian boards are a waste of money in most cases and thinks some of his teachers might privately agree.

that money should be put into training EVERY SINGLE member of staff and EVERY SINGLE student in basic life support methods i.e. CPR.

DS says the new ones will completely talk you through CPR too. It asks you if you know CPR and if you say 'no' it takes you through it in small steps.

I'm trained to use a defibrillator, it really is idiot proof. It tells you exactly what to do and It won't shock if it not needed.

I'd go with what gasman said as (I assume you are an anaesthetist ) as that post raises the most salient points of all.

YABVU - they are idiot proof and should be everywhere - especially in schools! And not just for the kids, I know of a case near us where a teacher's life was saved with one. If staff 'object' to being 'trained' you need more informed staff.

I don't think it is 'either/or' - you would still call the ambulance but 5 mins might be too late. I am a bit astounded that people would rather staff stood by and waited rather than did something!! It is a life and death situation!

"Of course we did what you always do in a medical emergency, and rang 999 first. I think the idea that having the defib on site would somehow get in the way of that is a bit ridiculous. Nobody's going to forget to call for help!"

but youre telling me that as fact, is it actually? Do you know that, once told there is a defib & to use it, most people won't get fixated on that to the detriment of all else?

What if someone needs one and the one you've bought is being used? Maybe the school should buy 2. Can't put a price on saving a life.

"exoticfruits Fri 01-Jun-12 06:52:02
I don't think it is 'either/or' - you would still call the ambulance but 5 mins might be too late. I am a bit astounded that people would rather staff stood by and waited rather than did something!! It is a life and death situation!"

no, I wouldnt rather. The point I am making is what are the chances, actually, that it will be needed in a primary school (and if someone tells me that they're fairly high, then fine) and does the cost vs chance it will be needed justify its purchase?

"MrsGuyOfGisbourne Fri 01-Jun-12 06:36:53
YABVU - they are idiot proof and should be everywhere"

so what do you think? one per 10 pupils inparimary and one per 5 pupils in secondary?

Potential life saver v interactive whiteboard....?

Personally, I'd chose the life saver every time. Neither are essential to a school day but one can save a life.

"What if someone needs one and the one you've bought is being used? Maybe the school should buy 2. Can't put a price on saving a life."

What if someone needs one and you've only got an interactive whiteboard? Maybe someone could rewire the whiteboard.

snort

my worry would be time spent on the defib that would be better spent on cpr. defibs don't restart the heart, they only shock it into the right rhythm. a rhythm has to exist in the first place

tyler

They do restart the heart. That is what they are for.

Sash - you only use one if they're not breathing. That's what I meant.

There will be elctrical ativity within the heart. This usually translates into contraction of the heart in a coordinated fashion, in a cardiac arrest this is not happening effectively. A defib can shock the heart back into an effective rhythm.

There is some information here, but basically if you have a defib you put it on ASAP, you dont delay that by doing cpr.