AIBU to disagree with PTA buying defibrillator for primary school?

[Babylon1]

That's it really.

I'm on the governing body at local primary school and the PTA have decided they are going to purchase a defibrillator for the first aid kit.

This is really down to one member of the PTA having suffered a terrible loss due to congenital heart defect which was undiagnosed in a child. NOT a child at this school I hasten to add.

Now, as a governing body, we have a wish list of what we would ideally like the PTA to help purchase, and at the moment we are prioritising interactive whiteboards, a new reading scheme and some new phonics materials - resources that will be used EVERY day by the pupils.

The PTA are insistent in buying the defibrillator ASAP, and I am equally insistent that we neither want/need it for the following reasons:

1. The likelihood of it EVER being used is hopefully very very slim

1. There is an ambulance station with trained medics less than 5 mins away at normal driving pace. On blues and twos an ambulance would/could be present inside of two mins.

1. There has been no consultation with staff, yet 5 of them would be expected to be happy to be trained to administer the defibrillator if it

was required.

1. There has been no consultation with parents to ascertain if they would be happy for their DCs to be defibrillated at school by a non-professional medic (I certainly wouldn't be)

Before I would be in the slightest happy about this, I want a demo from the company providing the equipment on how easy it is to use, bearing in mind it is a paediatric defibrillator.

I want to know who will make the decision that the defibrillator is required - ie who is going to diagnose the child with a failing heart?

What happens if/when it goes wrong? Will the administrator of the defibrillator be held responsible?

So am I being unreasonable?? Really appreciate your thoughts here as I need to feed back to governors at next meeting.

WhiteWidow

I know what you meant but it simply isn't true - if a child goes into respiratory arrest (much much more common than cardiac arrest) they are not breathing and defibbing will probably make things worse.

StealthPolarBear
Any one who needs one usually has one implanted, so inside their body rather than plugged in in the kitchen (although that sometimes happens).

Willabywallaby
A pacemaker will not stop a heart from fibrillating - depending on the heart condition she might be more at risk of cardiac arrest than the other children in school.

Theas18
It is difficult to do harm, but IMHO a primary school has more factors than a shopping centre such as wet floors/playing fields, a child falling between tables/desks with a hand touching a metal table leg and another child sitting at the table thinking they are 'standing clear'.

Community defibs are a good idea, there is a village somwhere that converted its red phone box to a defib station with several key holders who are trained to use it.

when i initially did my aed training (5 years ago) we were told that

No to all children having an epipen - but yes to one being in a first aid kit.
Yes to all year 6 children learning CPR - I am teaching my DC. They already know how to call for help.

Will admit to not knowing what school equipment costs...but remain firm that you put it back to the parents to fund raise if they deem it necessary.

Public health info - wear a bicycle helmet, don't smoke around your children, immunisation, healthy packed lunches.

One of the best indicators of health is education...

So would 1k even come close to funding CPR training for all year 6 chidren?

Yabu I did paed first aid course these machines save lives.

How many lives do they save? Do you have one in your home?

In one school?? I could train them - borrow a resus Annie . I certainly wouldn't charge 1K...

fire extinguishers are expensive and rarely used, I would still want one in my child's school more than some white boards.

Yes but all of us who are either hcps or have trained as first aiders know that CPR on a child who's heart has stopped (or adult for that matter) is very unlikely to work.

The heart beats due to electrical impulses that travel through the heart. If those electrical impulses stop it is almost impossible to get them started again using CPR

YABVU.

As people have already pointed out every second counts getting an AED to a patient whose heart has gone into fibrillation, and they will not shock if no shock is needed. Even if an ambulance is 5 minutes away, that could be 5 minutes too far.

Apart from delivering shocks, when needed, they also monitor the heartbeat, (which is how they can detect fibrillation).

As you said, hopefully it will never ever get used, but that doesn't mean it's a waste of money.

moomin is absolutely correct.

there is an 8% chance of CPR working alone.

the chances increase massively with a defib.

maybe this will answer some questions

That expensive fire alarm and sprinkler system has never been used except for practise. What a waste of money that was.

CPR works by keeping blood and oxygen pumping through your body hopefully reducing the chance of brain damage and organ failure until an ambulance can get to you and shock your heart back into working by itself.

If you want your children trained in CPR contact St John Ambulance, The British Heart Foundation or the Red Cross who will arrange a training session that's appropriate to the age group. Probably for free.

Yes Moomins... unfortunately CPR only succeeds in maintaining about 20% of the person's blood flow, so the brain gets deprived of oxygen nevertheless. Your exhaled breath also contains a lower percent of oxygen than air. CPR occasionally helps keep a person alive, but in quickly and severely deteriorating conditions. While getting the heart beating again (which is what a defib manages to do quite successfully if used before 7 minutes after the cardiac arrest) ensures the person's brain gets fully oxygenated quickly and efficiently. Once again, a no-brainer.

I haven't read all the responses, but in my school, the PTA decided it wanted to buy xyz and did a lot of research and pricing. Then theheadteacher said that whilst it was a lovely idea, they too had their wish list and other things were a greater priority.

Is there a teacher representative on the PTA who can go back and discuss with the teachers?

I can't comment about the rights and wrongs of buying a defib, but again, in my school, it can take up to 8 minutes to walk to where a defib would be stored, then maybe have to find a key, unpack it and return to the child. This would be far too long based on comments from previous posters.

It will be interesting to hear the outcome. I presume someone on the PTA has had personal experience for the need of a defib

YABU

When I did my paed 1st aid the instructor said they want more of them everywhere.

We lost a friend to SADS and an old colleague of mine lost his son during a school sports day.

You never know,one day it could be your child or you.

My son has a heart murmur(benign thankfully) but I for one wouldn't have a problem with anybody using one on him,at the end of the day it would give him a chance he'd otherwise not have.

yab totally unreasonable

We also find that teachers don't like to be told what to do by the PTA, irrespective of whether it is for the good of the school, so,you have to get the teachers on board beforehand

i'd be interested to hear any stats on aed defib use in children.

bhf recommends not locking them
interesting issue in a school

Why is the OP BU to ask the questions? Some people really hate finding stuff out, don't they?

YABU.
I am assuming it will be used for staff and adult visitors as well as the children.
Proper training should be given.
There has been a campaign to place defribillators in all public places for many years.
It is a well thought out campaign and not a 'health and safety gorn mad' idea.

sadsuk.org.uk/newsite/component/content/article/1-latest-news/106-sads-uk-defibrillator-in-school-campaign-reaches-25-million-people

FYI

Too many poorly trained people on the end of the pads. Defibrillators are not basic equipment and their function is poorly understood by so many people. They are not appropriate for all arrests and how many school employees/parents etc are trained to assess when it should be deployed?

Yearly updates are not enough also when people are not using it regularly and therefore have no opportunity to become familiarised.

A tree, lots of people saying they're fool proof and do no harm