AIBU to disagree with PTA buying defibrillator for primary school?

[Babylon1]

That's it really.

I'm on the governing body at local primary school and the PTA have decided they are going to purchase a defibrillator for the first aid kit.

This is really down to one member of the PTA having suffered a terrible loss due to congenital heart defect which was undiagnosed in a child. NOT a child at this school I hasten to add.

Now, as a governing body, we have a wish list of what we would ideally like the PTA to help purchase, and at the moment we are prioritising interactive whiteboards, a new reading scheme and some new phonics materials - resources that will be used EVERY day by the pupils.

The PTA are insistent in buying the defibrillator ASAP, and I am equally insistent that we neither want/need it for the following reasons:

1. The likelihood of it EVER being used is hopefully very very slim

1. There is an ambulance station with trained medics less than 5 mins away at normal driving pace. On blues and twos an ambulance would/could be present inside of two mins.

1. There has been no consultation with staff, yet 5 of them would be expected to be happy to be trained to administer the defibrillator if it

was required.

1. There has been no consultation with parents to ascertain if they would be happy for their DCs to be defibrillated at school by a non-professional medic (I certainly wouldn't be)

Before I would be in the slightest happy about this, I want a demo from the company providing the equipment on how easy it is to use, bearing in mind it is a paediatric defibrillator.

I want to know who will make the decision that the defibrillator is required - ie who is going to diagnose the child with a failing heart?

What happens if/when it goes wrong? Will the administrator of the defibrillator be held responsible?

So am I being unreasonable?? Really appreciate your thoughts here as I need to feed back to governors at next meeting.

I understand some of your concerns. However if you had been properly consulted some of your issues would have been resolved. Particularly around the use of the defib by an untrained person. Whether it is money well spent for the school and equally for the wider community depends on your POV. Perhaps there are business, shops around you that would contribute if the defib was made available for all to use?

My dd (18) has a condition which could cause her to have a sudden arrest. She has had two heart attacks. From a personal POV I would hope that if that happened to her in a public place there would be a defib available and someone brave enough to give it a go.

12 young people die everyday in the UK from undiagnosed heart problems.

The proximity of the ambulance station is really neither here nor there as you are assuming that an ambulance is there waiting to be despatched and sadly that is not always the case. And even 5 minutes makes a difference.

Someone mentioned screening. C-R-Y offer mobile screening but only aimed at 14 - 35 year olds and it does not pick up all issues as proved by the footballer collapses - those players are regularly screened for heart problems.

As a First Aid officer in my previous job, and needing to renew my FA certificate every 2 years for my current studies (midwife), and having seen defibs in action, I would definitely recommend it for every single public building. Someone asked why we don't have them at home if they are so great. Actually, I am considering having one at home, and letting all neighbours know in case they need it. A person in cardiac arrest has no oxygen going to his/her brain. SECONDS can make a difference between life and death, and between life as a vegetable and life as the person they have always been. Heart attacks are actually quite common among teachers. personally, I think having a defib at a school is a no-brainer.

I assume none of you have seen or used a fully automated defibrillator - the sort that are in all the big shopping centres for use by un trained members of the public?

The school has to make sure it's kept charges and everyone know where it is. Those are the hard parts, using it is easy-

Press a big green button and Do exactly what the machine tells you - plug the lead in, pop the stickers onto the chest ( there are pictures on them to show where) and stand back when it says ( assuming some CPR is being attempted).

It reads the heart rhythm and shocks if it's appropriate. If not it'll say that you should continue back life support.

You may be 2 mins away from and ambulance station (we have one in the comes at work) but that assumes there is an ambulance on site - we often wait 20 mins for a car ambulance to whizz down the motorway ffs !

Even 2 minutes when your heart has stopped is a llong time. The person could be back and talking by then with a defibrillator.

It's more likely to be someone's mum/ gran at the school play than a child but it's an amazing facility go have.

You can honestly do no damage from and auto defib ( ok to yourself if you don't stand clear when it says but there are warnings x several) remember this person/ child/ relative is to all intents and purposes DEAD at that point- action way well help, and the earlier the action the more likely sucess. Delay 5 mins and they stay dead essentially.

So out of all the things te money could e spent on it will be most effective at saving children's lives?

Because "we want to buy a defibrillator" is a stupid reason to spend the money. "we want to save children's lives" is sensible.

Please no one quote me out of context from the above, it has happened before and its the lowest of the low.

'So out of all the things te money could e spent on it will be most effective at saving children's lives?'

In terms of things that are within the grasp of the PTA to influence or change -yes maybe.

Ok good. I genuinely don't know but I suspect all the people who are saying "can't putba price on a life" don't know either. So it would save more lives than lifestyle education, obesity, alcohol, stis? I didn't know.

I work in intensive care so am used to using the equipment, have been involved in many paediatric arrests, performed CPR, administered shocks as required. The thought of doing this out of hospital, without monitors, drugs, equipment and my skilled colleagues scares me, so I'm not sure how you would all feel!

We have a very busy electrophysiology dept, the children are often well controlled on drugs, or have internal pacing devices fitted. The numbers are higher than you think.

I will reiterate what I said before. Fund raise for the AED. Use other funds for educational school equipment.

Stealth - you are right in that public health education is far more effective in the long run, but no one likes being told not to smoke, to drink less & eat more fruit and veg, etc

It depends on the school population I think Stealth. In our school we could spend an equivalent amount of money on educating parents on healthy lifestyles for example and I could guarantee you that it would be money down the drain. The parents we need to reach, for whatever reason, don't take advantage of that sort of thing.

Maybe fundraising for a defib would e a good starting point and could be extended into wider education about health and wellbeing.

As an aside a primary school possible isn't the best place for a defib as it's inaccessible to the community for a good part of the year. The local Co-op for example would be a better place but again it's not a one size fits all thing and depends on the area surrounding the OP's school as to whether it's worthwhile.

Well then the money could be spent on reaching the parents. It's possible. Agree co op (or somewhere else with long opening hours) could be a good idea, but Tbh in most communities it CPUs take 10mins to walk to the thing.

But that's what I'm saying Stealth. I can't speak for the OP's school but at mine the parents don't engage. We are in a very deprived area and have shedloads of money and manpower thrown at engaging parents with these issues and it falls on deaf ears. I'm not saying we should give up on it at all just that actually a tangible way of saving lives might be money well spent. Especially if it was available to the community not just the school.

Public health education is not within the remit of the PTA any more than road safety is. No PTA is going to mount a sustained, wide scale campaign which demonstrably improves health outcomes. PTAs work on a small scale, buying 'things' or services that are needed.

But there are ways to engage, the approach may have to bevtailored, the 1k could help (not offering advice btw, just saying this is a known problem)
Agree about it being in school, available 9-3, term time only. And kept put of the way of small children and vandals

Even public health as applied to their own children?
All I'm saying is if they want to save their children's lives, then the logical thing would be to make sure that what tjeyre spending the money on saves the most lives. If you're telling me that's a defibrillator then fine. But I am surprised Tbh that that is the one thing that 1k will save the most lives.

Many of the children at our school aren't even registered with a GP. They use the walk-in and A&E and go to the dentist when the child is writhing on the floor in pain needing an extraction and we pretty much call the dentist on their behalf. I'm both despairing and angry about it everyday. But that's another thread

.( poor children

I think you're overestimating what 1K can do. Frankly one life saved for 1K would be a bloody good bargain. You are not going to change behaviour sufficiently to markedly increase life expectancy with £1000. You just aren't.

But if you put a defib in and if it's needed you can save a life. NOt just add 5 or 10 years on but maybe 20 or 30. This is a subject close to my heart because if we'd had a defib in my dc's primary school then maybe we wouldn't have a memory quilt on the wall now.

For anyone interested here is video from Bondi Rescue using a defibrillator:

Yes quite possibly. I'm not overestimating, I honesty have no idea what 1k can do. I don't think many other posters do either (you're a notable exceptiona!) Think a lot of people just see life saving equipment and say the school needs it, without applying logic, which is hat the op is trying to do. If 5m from the ambulance is such an issue and we save lives at any cost surely there should be one in each home. If there are other ways to spend the money which will save more lives (stairgates for each family currently in yr? Do not focus on this, I am using it as an example of how the money could be used to reduce accidents, sure there are better examples.
Sorry to hear about the child at your school.

Should each child have an Epi pen, just in case, for example?

Just to reiterate, I do bot think this is abgood idea. Just using it as an example of other blanket preventative measures. What about CPR training for all in y6?

Thanks again for all the responses, I'm really happy to be receiving such a massive response with varying opinions.

I'm quite happy to be told IABU, it is down to personal opinion afterall.

PrincessLayerCake it's not the same school, I'm quite a lot further south, but the dynamics do sound similar, in that we are a similar size (160).

In terms of the wish list, this was a joint decision between PTA and GB basically to make sure we're all working towards a common goal. Of course we understand that the PTA can choose how they spend the money they raise BUT am I wrong to think they should spend the money on resources that are used by every child and on a daily basis?

A separate fund raiser specifically for a defib aed would be fantastic - but I do maintain it's not particularly about the money, more about the other issues I have raised. Some of those issues have been laid to rest thru MN (thank you) and other issues have raised their heads further, for which I will need to do more research thru the channels which have been suggested.

No but maybe it should be looked into that the school should have an epi pen for use in emergencies. I don't know the medical ins and outs as to why this is not the case at the moment so I am not saying it should be the case.

YABU.

I just took a first aid course, and we were told how important defibrillators are - they really do save lives.

They are SO easy to use. The one we practiced with had a diagram to show you were to attach the wires to the chest. After that, the machine checks for the heart rate and based on that decides whether to shock or not. It then continues monitoring, and reshocking.

Also, just because you have paramedics nearby, doesn't mean they will be free to reach you quickly.