AIBU to disagree with PTA buying defibrillator for primary school?

[Babylon1]

That's it really.

I'm on the governing body at local primary school and the PTA have decided they are going to purchase a defibrillator for the first aid kit.

This is really down to one member of the PTA having suffered a terrible loss due to congenital heart defect which was undiagnosed in a child. NOT a child at this school I hasten to add.

Now, as a governing body, we have a wish list of what we would ideally like the PTA to help purchase, and at the moment we are prioritising interactive whiteboards, a new reading scheme and some new phonics materials - resources that will be used EVERY day by the pupils.

The PTA are insistent in buying the defibrillator ASAP, and I am equally insistent that we neither want/need it for the following reasons:

1. The likelihood of it EVER being used is hopefully very very slim

1. There is an ambulance station with trained medics less than 5 mins away at normal driving pace. On blues and twos an ambulance would/could be present inside of two mins.

1. There has been no consultation with staff, yet 5 of them would be expected to be happy to be trained to administer the defibrillator if it

was required.

1. There has been no consultation with parents to ascertain if they would be happy for their DCs to be defibrillated at school by a non-professional medic (I certainly wouldn't be)

Before I would be in the slightest happy about this, I want a demo from the company providing the equipment on how easy it is to use, bearing in mind it is a paediatric defibrillator.

I want to know who will make the decision that the defibrillator is required - ie who is going to diagnose the child with a failing heart?

What happens if/when it goes wrong? Will the administrator of the defibrillator be held responsible?

So am I being unreasonable?? Really appreciate your thoughts here as I need to feed back to governors at next meeting.

Considering the amount of procedure required to buy/build anything for or in a school - the risk asessements etc
I seriously doubt that there would be a national campaign for all schools to have this equipment if it was a.dangerous or b.pointless.

"in my school, it can take up to 8 minutes to walk to where a defib would be stored"

How long if you ran with urgency?

Nothing is foolproof, Stealth. Have seen trained HCP get their knickers in a twist with these machines.

For my sins I have a background in cost benefit analysis, I suppose if I were OP I'd be consulting the scholarly articles about the cost effectiveness of "AED"s. This article, for instance, concludes that it depends very much on the size & risk profile (age demographics, I think that means) of the population served. This article concludes that AEDs were only cost effective in places where there is expected high need for them (like hospitals). Lots more articles to look at.

Atree, just pointing ot you disagree with the majority. I'd like to know who is right.

I'm particularly liking the posters who are telling me IABU but not elaborating

Thanks for that, very helpful!!

The PTA have told us the defib they are looking at is for paediatrics and not suitable for adult use; but is this wholly down to the different pad attachments?

Even running could take a while, especially if the child was in the school grounds rather than a classroom.

However, just done a quick google search and there are lots of links to why they are a good idea.

The bad news is, you also need to buy accessories which need to be factored into the funding

You have certainly got me thinking about suggesting this

Yabu to even compare buying a piece of life saving equipment to buying a new reading scheme
Where I live defibrillators are compulsory in schools (primary and secondary), colleges, office buildings, supermarkets etc.

Ok, very few children will benefit from a defibrillator but are they really going to begrudge it if just one child's heart stops?

Not sure. Won't be good for the teachers or grannys then!
Yes, yabu for asking a question Amd finding out more. wonderful attitude

I'm just pointing out some of the issues as i have seen them. it's not quite as simple as 'just following' machine prompts. They are not foolproof, especially in situations where there may be a lot of 'armchair experts' or well meaning but inexperienced people. I have witnesses some very poor training regarding these machines and CPR as a whole. One trainer spent so much time showing untrained students how to check the limbs for any breaks etc that it had to be pointed out to him that he had as of yet, failed to establish the existence or not of vital signs! And he was certified but got a little too self important in the display of his 'knowledge'. Trouble is, health 'civilians' are only as good as their most recent training/experience and I have seen mistakes made and panic/confusion set in.

I don't know who is right. MN is certainly not the forum to pronounce right/wrong because none of us possesses all the knowledge of each given situation. A lot of it comes down to perceptions of risk and perceptions of control over that risk.

Thing is where will it end? I would suggest that anaphylaxis kits and training are just as important and far more likely to be deployed. Training can be accessed to overcome problems of certifying staff in the administrations of medicines.

Not sure how much they cost, but have seen them used on several occasions at work.

An absolute doddle to use - no risk to the patient as if it detects a heart rhythm it won't administer the shock. It also speaks out the instructions to the operator.

I understand your concerns but YABU.

I have made these sorts of points further down the thread :)

So compos, is a tree wrong when she says they're not fool proof?

Just got this from my best mate, who is paramedic person of vast experience and has done defib training for non-professionals:

AEDs (automated external defibs) are completely idiot proof - if you can press a button, you can switch it on and it talks you through the whole thing - it won't let you shock a patient accidentally.

The ambulance station being 5 minutes away is a complete red-herring as it's unlikely that there'll be one there if you need it! The defib will not be a paediatric one - it will be a regular, one size fits all so there would need to be an understanding that if an adult collapses on site (far more likely than a child) then the machine would need to be available for that. Any collapse (and this will be a significant, total collapse, rather than someone being diagnosed with a 'failing heart' very quaint!) will elicit a 999 call and the call taker will ask if there is a defib on scene and will give appropriate instructions to whoever is using the machine. I agree that ALL staff should be up to date with CPR training as the defib is not a stand alone intervention and CPR will be required as well. As for not wanting to be defibbed by a non medic - GROW UP!!! - every second the heart is not beating counts and if you can get the machine out and switch it on you're already qualified to use it!!!

There should be consensus on the installation of the defib though as it will need some people to monitor it, keep pads up to date etc... if it's regularly (monthly) checked, they really shouldn't go wrong, if it does (likely to be a battery failure) you default back to CPR and waiting for an ambulance - er... where they are now!

whilst an aed won't shock someone accidentally i wonder if there are negative affects associated with stopping cpr to get a reading? would people try more than once, delaying cpr further?

if it's true that 90% of children will not have a shockable rhythm (again, this may have changed but it's what i was taught on my training in the states) then could the presence of a defibrillator cause more harm than good?

We have epipens in school but only for use with the child they are prescribed for. Indeed epipens are not without their own set of issues. If someone used an epipen on my dd she may well be in a position where she might need the defib

Seems to be a lot of conflicting info on this thread. Op has been told it will be a child only one, someone else says they don't exist. Lot of people saying they're foolproof, some saying definitely not.

The british heart foundation sys they are fool proof

I went to the funeral of a wonderful 12 year old girl 2 months ago, she died in school and there was no defib on site. The ambulance was there within 5 minutes of the call but she was pronounced dead at the scene.

If the school had a defib she may have stood a chance, it's a slim chance but who wouldn't want to have that chance offered to their child?

ANY equipment that may help prevent the death of a child is worth having and as has been said the AED's are idiot proof.

So for the above reasons I think YABU. I would do anything I could to not have witnessed that beautiful, loving, little girl's coffin.

Bloody hell, what are the necessary accessories,how much do they cost, and what are ongoing maintenance costs?
It looks to me like a typical cost of just the basic machine is min. £1300, anyone disagree?

YABU. Defibs are foolproof and IMO any place that has to have a health and safety officer/first aider should have one.

Lisa so would you habe one in your home?

Yes, I would have one in my home. We have already convinced my work place to have one and they are also funding one for 2 local schools. We intend to purchase one for home as soon as we have the funds. I am a first aider at work too. I also, sadly, saw a BF father die of heart attack when I was 16 and as part of my counselling my parents paid for first aid course (sorry going off on one a bit, but as a 16yr old the thing I struggled with the most was not being able to help at all), so now I at least can confidently do CPR.

stealth they are fool proof. I have seen a colleague who is a bona fide fool use one successfully and she struggles with a walkie talkie.