to think a biological child is not a right

[Aribura]

and the NHS should not fund IVF in favour of vital medications for already existing people e.g. cancer drugs being funded?

I'm feeling masochistic this evening and am looking forward to munching on some biscuits and getting my ass handed to me.

Op YABVVVVVU. I assume you have not gone through the all consuming heartbreak and depression that comes with infertility and miscarriage? Life constantly on hold, holidays postponed as it may fall on a treatment cycle so you have to be close to the hospital for scanning and drug collection, the waking up every day in tears at the sheer unfairness and physical pain of it, once pregnant the fear and realisation that another fecking miscarriage is on the way.
We arr fortunate enough to get 6 iui cycles and 1ivf cycle funded in our area and it is this glimmer of hope that is preventing me dropping into the depression and despair I had this time last year when we were all alone on this journey , awaiting to be put on the nhs waiting list and grieving for the first 18 months of marriage which had been consumed by months of disappointment and then finally bfp's followed by losses. The fertility specialist and nurses we have met on the nhs are truly inspirational people and they believe that having a biological child is within everyone's rights.
Good luck to everyone travelling this same heartbreaking journey, hopefully our time will come.
Op, grow up and learn some empathy.

Children are a blessing and not a right. HOWEVER if infertility is caused through illness then I think it should be funded. If you have left it too late because of your career then you should fund it. You have already made your priorities clear.

I notice the OP hasn't come back

We live in what the USA calls a "Multi-family House" - as in, we're on the top floor, another couple on the ground floor. The couple downstairs are lovely - in their late twenties, really sweet to DS (who is obsessed with them) - and they are unable to conceive due to her irregular cycles. And although they both have jobs and therefore both have health insurance, it's considered an 'elective' treatment on most plans and so they can't afford IVF, and there's no NHS here. And so it's unlikely they'll ever get to have a child.

And it breaks my heart. I have no idea if they will decide to adopt - they are both quite young and maybe they want to keep trying, but I know they've been trying for years and years. I've been very fortunate to conceive pretty much exactly when I wanted to, but DH and I had to sit down and talk about how we were going to break the news of our second pregnancy to our lovely, lovely neighbours without putting them, her especially, in the position of having to plaster on a fake smile or be upset at the news.

I just don't see how anyone can look upon infertility problems and think, well, it's not that bad. Not when you know people who absolutely long to conceive, gestate and birth a child of their own, and may never have one.

goldengoblin - But who are you to decide who is 'worthy'? Infertility is (I imagine) equally agonising whether caused by a medical condition or by waiting till later in life. We fund for everyone (ought to be three cycles IMHO) or no one

goldengoblin what about those (the vast majority who end up needing ivf) with 'unexplained' infertility. Arguably there is a medical condition, but what 'unexplained' means is that the medical profession just dont know why. Is it just tough luck for them.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have more goes than twice, just you shouldn't expect the rest of us to fund your dream.

Oh yes, absolutely, and those poor cancer patients hoping for an extra month of life definitely shouldn't expect the rest of us to fund their dream either.

I would say that "unexplained infertilty" is treated the same as illness. My bugbear is the people who put off having baby because of social/work issues despite knowing as they get older their fertility decreases. Also, if their work was so important they should have been able to save. I just get tired of people complaining when it is their own choices that put them in that position.

I would like to apologise for sounding like a bitch-but I do have experience in this area.

"I absolutely detest this common misconception which to me boreders on mysogyny that infertile women are a bit loony, damaged, cant make sensible decisions and need others to decide what they are "allowed" to do to have a baby."

Yes, it does border on misogyny.

I've always found it easy to imagine that infertility would have been massively upsetting and damaging to my wellbeing and state of mind, so I may have accepted the misogyny you refer to without questioning it :(

Thanks for pointing it out :)

"Oh yes, absolutely, and those poor cancer patients hoping for an extra month of life definitely shouldn't expect the rest of us to fund their dream either."

We do ration expensive cancer drugs where the possible benefit can't be justified on cost grounds.

I think it is reasonable to have a limit of the number of funded cycles of IVF, although I don't agree that having children already should mean you can't have treatment. Secondary infertility can be very tough, and I don't see why that shouldn't be treated.

Op - off right Fuck - rearrange at your leisure - oh I see you have.

"My bugbear is the people who put off having baby because of social/work issues despite knowing as they get older their fertility decreases."

I favour a system of healthcare where decisions about treatment are made based on rational grounds rather than the personal peeves and prejudices of the general population.

I have been TTC for over 3 years with 1 miscarriage and 1 failed self funded ivf along the way. What many people don't realise is it costs over £4, 000 for one round and since we didn't want to wait another 3 years for treatment we are sacrificing our NHS cycles by self funding. After our 2nd self funded cycle in July we will no longer get NHS funding as we paid.

Although I am still young in fertility sense (29) it was lucky we self funded as we have Found out my ovaries are basically the age of a 38-40 year old. If we had waited 3 years for NHS cycle we Would have been unlikely to succeed. The heartbreak of being unble to succeed and knowing that we are very likely to never have a child is beyond describable. Sorry for rant just wanted to say not everyone leaves it too late or even knows they have issues. We are 'unexplained' by the way.

Foodie.

Unexplained infertility is going to cover the myriad of reasons that conception doesn't place that medical science doesn't yet understand.
But hey, if if u happen to fall into that categorie tough luck eh lambzig ??
People who have ivf treatments in their later years have often been TTc for years, so it's not that they put it off, they didn't conceive !!!!
Many areas won't give ivf until you are 35
But god don't dare have a career in the meantime
Eh golden goblin ...?
It takes such skill having a baby the normal way ??
Mmmm.... Any druggie, potential abuser, neglecter, can do it, and how rude that those kids get money thrown at them by social services ?.
Money to chase a dream ......
Kids bought into this world are usually parented by those who have what many other kids don't have .
Parents that are truly grateful for the chance to have a child, and will do anything to ensure they have the best life.
So look around you at all the non ivf kids.... Do they have more right to be in this world ?.
Of course not.
All children are precious, and kids here through ivf are even more special.
Get over it .

No, I know we do, AThingInYourLife. Which I think is a reasonable though sad decision to make. We also ration IVF, which is also sad but reasonable. What I think would be unreasonable would be to stop all ivf in order to shift funds over to cancer, though thankfully I think it's only the OP who wants that.

Yes, Northey, we agree. Sorry, I misunderstood you. :)

What of you've left it 'too late' because you hadn't actually met someone to have a baby with? Mostly I think, you know, there are a lot of things you could thrown into an aibu thread on a Saturday night to watch the fireworks go off. But to choose such a one dimensional, ill thought out binary of an argument, on a site such as this, is cruel and low. I've no idea where the op went, to bed? But I have this to say. Unless you have been in the position of not being able to conceive the 'normal' way, you haven't really any idea of what that is actually like. It's not like popping down to tesco and finding their out if stock of something you quite fancy. Adopting isn't like toddling down to the baby shop and going back home as a family. Maybe spend just a few minutes imagining what it might have been like if it had been you. It would be a more worthwhile, empathy inducing exercise than posting such utter shite.

"All children are precious, and kids here through ivf are even more special."

Thanks AThingInYourLife. Just to clarify. I am not saying that infertility is not upsetting and damaging to your wellbeing, but so is the death of a loved one, break up of a relationship, a divorce or losing your job. Its about how each individual copes with a difficulty like those, grieves and recovers.

The mysogyny in my opinion comes from the idea that its only infertility where the view is that this difficult emotional upset renders all women (and only women you note) "damaged".

Despite it taking me 7 goes at ivf to get pregnant, I too think there should be a limit to the funding by the nhs. Personally I agree with medical opinion that three cycles gives each patient a very good chance, so that is probably a sensible limit to me. It just should be accessible to anyone in an appropriate age range, not a postcode lottery, and should include funded egg donation cycles for those with ovarian aging (but thats a whole new debate).

For those sharing their infertility stories, you are very brave to do so, please keep your hopes up.

"I think the best people to answer this question are the children who have been born as a result of NHS funding IVF treatment. I am quite sure that they think it is a good thing."

Absolutely. And what's more, they even pay taxes

The problem for any country is that they have to balance their budget. Ie. if you are a poor woman in a third world country then IVF is out of the question. Especially as many children in third world countries die from easily treatable or preventable illness like measles or other childhood illnesses.

The UK is no longer a wealthy country. I suppose as the credit crunch goes on then we will have harsh decisions to face. Its not that we don't care, its affording health care. The nhs is collapsing under the strain of what the UK is demanding from it.

Ie. do we pay for anti biotics to save the life of an 8 month old baby with a simple chest infection or do we pay for IVF? Should we decide not to treat anyone over 70 for cancer except to ease pain? Or should we enthanise the elderly and infirm to avoid the pensions /social care crisis.

I am being devils advocate, but in all seriously there is just simply not enough money in the UK to pay for everything people want.

Why do people always set up a comparison between life-saving treatments and IVF? Many things funded by the IVF are not life-threatening, they're to do with quality of life. And there are a few other things funded by the government could arguably be considered unnecessary (dome, Olympics for a start)

Yabu. Infertilty is just as devasting for those dealing with it. My dh has some fertility issues. We went though a range of tests which confirmed this. We would not qualify for ivf because problem was with dh. If I had blocked tubes we would have been denied treatment. Fortunately they were fine and we actually went on to conceive naturally.
However, those 2 years of trying were hell. I gained alot of weight. Not great from a health point of view.

"And there are a few other things funded by the government could arguably be considered unnecessary (dome, Olympics for a start)"

Quite agree, but its a decision made a democracy. We are also funding the Queen's Jubliee and countless other stupid things.

Everyone in a democracy have their own opinons on what is important and who should suffer with any cuts made. Its rare that someone is in favour of a cut that affects them.

I don't see why ReallyTired got a bashing for that post. While I understand it may hurt some people to read that others conceive easily, I didn't read that as a gloat designed to hurt others. I read it that she was just saying she had no personal experience of infertility. Maybe it wasn't worded in the most sensitive way considering the thread, but it's undeserving of the flaming it has received.

I am very lucky to conceive 2 children very easily, I have always wanted children and I think I would have been devastated to have not been able to have them and would probably have done everything in my power on order to have children, including using the nhs so unless people have been through the pain of infertility then it's very easy to make these statements.