to think a biological child is not a right

[Aribura]

and the NHS should not fund IVF in favour of vital medications for already existing people e.g. cancer drugs being funded?

I'm feeling masochistic this evening and am looking forward to munching on some biscuits and getting my ass handed to me.

higgle - that's akin to saying that there's no point in treating most secondary cancers as the survival rates are pretty poor. But we still do

daintynuts how terribly sad that so much of it is a waste of money. Not from the point of view of the waste of money, but from the point of view of the people not surviving.

Did I express that correctly?

"I don't know why infertility is in category 5 of the list. I'd put it in "Conditions that affect everyday functioning if not treated" and "Conditions that affect everyday quality of life" too."

Sorry perhaps it should be in category 4. But in the "conditions that affect everyday functioning if not treated" I meant the kind of illnesses that if not treated mean you can't go to the toilet, dress yourself, eat, etc without lots of help.Lots of the consitions I see my older friends and relatives being treated for fall into this category.

In reply to poster above, I think it is outrageous that the NHS spends money on homeopathic medicines. I know they have tried to pull away from it but there is always an outcry from people like Prince Charles and the NHS backtracks

I have no experience of Infertility as my two children were made very easily the normal way.

Having children has been one of the biggests joys of my life. I think that people under 40 with Infertility problems should be allowed up to 3 cycles to concieve one child on the NHS. Possibly some of the treatment could be abroad to keep costs down. I would like an end to the random postcode lottery in the UK.

Sad to say, I see no point in funding IVF over 40 as the sucess rates are so low and I think that after 3 attempts the pychological strain of IVF must be incredible. Also if IVF has failed 3 times, then the chances of sucess are low. I also think that IVF should be denied to the morbidly obcese. (Ie. BMI >35)

We are all going to die and harsh as it is, how much can you justify on paying to keep one person alive for an extra couple of weeks. Cancer could easily consume the entire budget of the NHS.

Personally I am glad that the NHS keeps the self harmers alive. They are in a pretty bad place if self harming is the only way they can get attention. I agree its a frustrating waste of money though.

Reallytired - Although I agree with most of your post, the reality is that most people are self harmers. Very few people live a totally healthy lifestyle throughout their life.

"I have no experience of Infertility as my two children were made very easily the normal way. "

How marvellous for you.

Reallytired I dont thing you are correct on the figs around IVF having failed 3 times meaning your chances are low. Having been in the middle of that, I researched that to bits and any stats are hugely distorted by the average age of patients after 3 treatments, cause of infertility etc, so its not an absolute. Agree unfortunately about the aging thing.

Daintynuts, your £800 per cycle figure is mindblowing. As even those having 'self funded' treatment at an NHS hospital as opposed to private treatment are paying over the odds? Us self-funders are told we are just covering costs.

The high cost of the doctors wage packet will be factored into that though Lambzig.

Yes but £800 reality cost instead of £4-6 K cost to patients seems very different. Very interesting.

"Reallytired I dont thing you are correct on the figs around IVF having failed 3 times meaning your chances are low"

I suppose the sad thing is where you draw the line and decide enough is enough on financial grounds. Multiple attempts of IVF are damaging pychologically and physiologcially as well the cost. At what point should couples consider other options like adoption? The drugs that people take for IVF have some hideous side affects and should a woman be allowed to put hersefl at risk of some serious health conditions for the all comsuming desire to have a child.

Ie. if a particular fertility drug can cause cancer in later years should a woman be allowed to take it repeat it? The desperate urge to have a child can blind you to the rest of the world.

I agree that an NHS under strain should not be funding homeopathy.

I think the limited value it has comes from patients having the opportunity to talk holistically with a sympathetic practitioner about themselves and their health. I'd rather see GPs take a more holistic approach, and some funds for counseling if funds are available.

reallytired I think you are making too many assumptions that everyone reacts the same to the drugs and psychologically (particularly as you havent been through it yourself).

It really does depend on the person. I have known some people for whom one failed attempt was enough, it really affected them so badly that they gave up their job and took months to recover. I have also known people to get seriously ill from the side effects of the drugs.

As for myself, I didnt really get any side effects from the drugs themselves and picked myself up relatively quickly after the failed attempts, yes they hurt but I had other things in my life too. During ttc, I also got married, got a PhD, got several new promotions and jobs and travelled extensively - I just had in the back of my mind that I wasnt ready to give up.

I absolutely detest this common misconception which to me boreders on mysogyny that infertile women are a bit loony, damaged, cant make sensible decisions and need others to decide what they are "allowed" to do to have a baby.

The long term implications of taking fertility drugs is not yet understood and while there are fears, there is no real evidence yet. Besides, other things where there is a direct link to cancer are sold/used daily.

Personally, I have never been happier since finally conceiving my DD, I cannot imagine how less rich my life would be without her and I dont think anyone else has the right to tell me I should have given up after 3 attempts due to some no doubt well meaning assumptions that they have made.

I knew someone would throw in the "why dont they adopt" argument eventually. I think you will find that most people facing infertility do consider adoption, but for many reasons it may not be right for them, or possible. My DH had very good personal experience reasons for wanting to rule out adoption, but from speaking with adopters and exploring the topic I would imagine the process to be even more psychologically gruelling than several cycles of IVF.

"I have no experience of Infertility as my two children were made very easily the normal way. "
Reallytired do you realise how horribly, smugly, insensitively thoughtless and hurtful this statement is? Please never say it aloud irl (while grinning) in case there are any 'abnormal' infertiles in earshot.

I don't have figures to hand re inflated costs of IVF but I know Professor Robert Winston campaigns hard for the costs of IVF to be brought down and against the exploitation of couples by greedy infertility doctors (his words).

I think the best people to answer this question are the children who have been born as a result of NHS funding IVF treatment. I am quite sure that they think it is a good thing.

reallytired your smug 'conceived the easy way' statement just blew me away.

Insensitive much? THat would have been like a knife in the guts a few years back when I had been TTC for 3 years. I have since had 3DC's but will NEVER forget the absolute AGONY of infertility.

Jeez.

YABU and shit stirring.

I think Prof Winston said the 'real' cost of IVF could be £2k a cycle.
I don't think IVF funding should be high on teh NHS list of priorities and should only be available for married couples (woman under 35 for a maximum of 2 cycles

"I have no experience of Infertility as my two children were made very easily the normal way ."

How very fucking nice for you.

I am one of those women struggling to conceive due to secondary infertility, a lying cheating ex fiancé giving me a quiet little infection that sat there unnoticed for years. Should I not be offers IVF due to the fact that it WILL probably take more than 3 cycles? Or because I already have 1 dc?

I delight in other peoples happiness. When friends become pregnant, I don't feel jealous and I don't require their sympathy, but you and your attitude and your comments are so very very hurtful, that it beggars belief.

IVF is psychologically damaging? How damaging do you think it is to see time slipping away and no baby, to want one so much that it feels like a loss every time you get your period, to feel such guilt that you cannot give your dh what he so wants and deserves?

I am shocked that any mother could be so cold to the feelings of other women.

Must. Not. Engage re married couples thing.

Reallytired ???? Get your naive pathetic, evil, nasty head out of your ass.
Count your blessings love, no one is entitled to all the good luck,
I wonder when you are struggling with something as completely encompassing as the ability to conceive, that some really stupid person doesn't come along and gloat at you because they are not in the same boat.
Compassion, empathy, keeping your gob shut when you are ignorant are virtues you need to consider.
And OP.... Feeling masochistic, so go on a parenting site and come out with bull about the right to parenting, shame on you.
I hope your conscious kicks in at some point.
Appalling.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have more goes than twice, just you shouldn't expect the rest of us to fund your dream.

Northey my thoughts too. Hard reigning it in, isnt it?

ReallyTired - you'll be pleased to hear that you'd be lucky to get 2 cycles on the NHS, much less three. Plus you only get it if your BMI is under 30.

So don't worry too much, you super-clever fertile thing, you

And while we're talking about cost, an ambulance costs minimum £250 every time it answers a call. And how many ambulances do you reckon are called in an average day where they aren't really needed? I can tell you it would pay for many, many cycles of IVF

Oopsi the 'three cycles' things comes from statistical success rates, not someone just thinking three is fair.

Not funding the dream. Oh, then the NHS shouldnt pay for any antenatal care or birth care or c-sections - after all its just funding some poor pregnant woman's dream to help her.

Got to step away from this thread as at 15 weeks pregnant it cant be good for my blood pressure.