to think a biological child is not a right

[Aribura]

and the NHS should not fund IVF in favour of vital medications for already existing people e.g. cancer drugs being funded?

I'm feeling masochistic this evening and am looking forward to munching on some biscuits and getting my ass handed to me.

I agree with the statement that there is not enough money spent on drugs for people with life limiting illness - purely on the basis one PCT will fund something another won't.

But you have to consider the whole picture. There is no point spending thousands on treatments for life limiting illness that may or may not be sucessful without the balance of spending money on producing new life.

And humans are meant to reproduce - it is a natural biology, why should someone who has a medical need for treatment because they have problems with they're reproductive organs/blood clotting/ cervix etc not be treated the same as someone who has problems with they're organs.

And would you apply the same argument to someone say - who never drunk alchohol or smoked but couldn't get pregnant V's someone who needs life saving treatment for lung cancer because they've smoked. As surely one is harrowing bad luck and one is self inflicted?

I wish all the posters on here who are recieving IVF and similar all the luck in the world conceiving.

YABAC (you are being a cunt)

10 years here TTC. 4 rounds of IVF. One was funded, which didn't work. The other three cost us thousands. Incidentally, the funded one was done in the same private facility that the ones we paid for was. Why the process made us have a sperm test in a private clinic, costing the NHS £400, instead of doing it in an NHS hospital, I do not know. Maybe that's where cuts can be made? Particularly as it was our third sperm test in 6 months, all with identical results.
Maybe it isn't a "right" for people to have children, but as someone who was childless for many many years, the exclusion from the "normalcy" of society can be crippling. Even the question from an old.school friend. "Any kids?" can be enough to make you sob into your latte.
For years and years being dragged to family events, fun days, getting flyers from local schools, seeing adverts on tv for pregnancy tests, spending £100s a year on tests, crying at yet another period, watching friends and family members getting pregnant, having beautiful babies, and then having another one...two...., going on holidays staring whistfully at fucking trunkis, fending off probing questions from sunrise about when you're going to make your mum a granny, realising that you're letting your whole family down.as a result of that, going.to countless christenings, buying all your friends' kids birthday and christmas presents wondering if it will ever be you, getting invited to those kids' parties, clearly out of pity, and being conspicuous by being the only childless couple there, watching colleagues at work getting priority holiday dates at christmas because "they've got kids" and coming home to a dark empty house yet again, after another long day at work, while your dh is still working because what else is there to do? And all the while fully aware that your taxes (which, as a childless couple were arguably higher than many of our friends) are funding schools and childrens' centres and libraries with kids sections, and maternity care and everything else that is geared up for families, and never begrudging it, because you're utterly desperate to be a part of it all one day.
so, no. It isn't a right, but what a horrible fucking example to pick.on. abortion isn't a "right" and neither are home births, or maternity care, or epidurals. But wouldn't someone be a giant prick to pick on those?

I can see the OP has been too gutless to come back and respond to all the posts on her nasty little thread.

I too have suffered the tragedy of infertility and would agree that it is the single most painful thing I have ever endured.

My heart goes out to all those still dealing with it.

Sorry about length of post and no paragraphs. Am in phone, and also didn't realise how annoyed i was.

All children are biological!

Infertility IS a medical condition and should be treated on the NHS. Saying that, a biological child is not a right, it's a privilege.

My wife and I couldn't conceive and when the IVF route. The first two cycles we paid for mainly because our local trust only paid for one and there was a long waiting list. The first two didn't work so we had our third, free one on the NHS. That failed too. As a previous poster said there is no way to explain the heartache of this unless you go through it yourself. In the end after much soul searching we decided to adopt. We now have an absolutely wonderful 2 1/2 yo boy who has been with us for just over a year now. With hindsight I can't see why we put ourselves through the whole thing as there's no way we could be happier if we had a biological child.

So, yes, a biological child is a privilege and not a right. An adopted child is a privilege too. Not everyone are able to (or should ) become parents.

Good luck to everyone going through fertility tx. It can work, hang in there! Unmn hugs galore...

As someone currently seeing a gynaecologist because my cycles last anything between 9 days and 24days I have a medical problem which means I am drained/anaemic.....and also because of it can't have children. I therefore have a right to medical treatment which hopefully (i can dream) will lead to children.
If I was told there was only enough money to treat me or someone with a life threatening illness I would say for them to be treated, however the nhs is for everyone and I pay into it and I do therefore have a "right" to treatment.
I am heartened to see people defending people like myself on this thread but I am shocked to see on a parenting site that someone could put such a hurtful and cruel comment about something we are all here about. And that they posted it for fun. Disgusting op.

I agree that IVF shouldn't be funded in favour of other vital medications, but we shouldn't be in a position where we are fighting over which treatment is more important, or more debilitating, or a higher priority. If the government prioritised the NHS and everything that could be offered on it acording to what medical treatments are currently available, we could have both.

There are so many people being denied treatments or operations, or only being offered them if they wait for months on end while their condition deteriorates, I don't know how the government can justify many things, but IVF isn't one of them.

YABU.

Of course cancer should have a very high priority for funding. But the NHS funds many things which are not life-threatening, such as the 40% of A&E admissions which are alcohol-related, and the £4,000,000 it spends each year on homeopathy. Would you rather have hay fever, mild indigestion - or never, ever be able to have a child of your own?

It is biologically normal for women and men to be able to have children. If part of the process goes wrong then this is a medical and health issue. There are many possible physical causes, such as blocked fallopian tubes, endometriosis, thyroid problems, polycystic ovary syndrome, fibroids, sperm abnormalities, obstructive azoospermia. In most cases of infertility, the cause can be found.

Many NHS treatments are about improving quality of life, rather than necessarily prolonging life.

If having children is not a "right" then this applies to everyone, not just people with fertility problems.

"All children are biological!"

I don't know why infertility is in category 5 of the list. I'd put it in "Conditions that affect everyday functioning if not treated" and "Conditions that affect everyday quality of life" too.

hey, Aribura, at least you didn't trot out the old 'there's always adoption' bollox.
YAstillBU though.

Children are a gift .

Not everyone is fit to be a parent , and it's heartbreaking how the people who would be the very best parents , often cannot have children without medical help .

To deny these people the chance of having a child is cruel and barbaric.

Fertility treatment is no different than treatment for heart problems ...it's just fixing something thats broken. Except treatment for diseases and conditions improves one persons life ...fertility treatment helps create life .

Given that the birth rate has fallen , and there will be too few young people to support the old aged , fertility treatment is an investment in all our futures , not just the couple who are childless.

I think it's one of the few things the government actually has right .

"Health economists have crunched the figures very carefully and applying the current NICE guidelines (which recommend a certain number of cycles, using up all viable fresh and frozen eggs in women under 40, IIRC) are the best use of resources."

I'd forgotten about this. Thanks, edam :)

"treatment for diseases and conditions improves one persons life ...fertility treatment helps create life"

It also enormously improves the parents' quality of life, compared to being devastated by the sadness of infertility, so I'm not sure there's such a distinction there :)

Aribura - have you ever had fertility issues?

Fertility treatment is just fixing something that is broken - absolutely.

But the difference between fertility treatment and the vast majority of other treatments is that fertility isn't going to get worse because of long waiting lists. That is not true of other conditions that people are made to wait months for.

I think IVF should be available on the NHS, but I don't think you can say its the same as other treatments for there being 'something wrong'. It isn't.

You're so right op, having biological children is not a right. Which is why I will be campaigning strongly for compulsory contraception until a stringent set of criteria for trying to conceive have been met. No...of course not. Fertility treatment in our case required effectively a permission slip from our gp to say that we were fit human beings to go ahead. That is hard enough without people who know very little of the heartache banging on about who has the right to at least try and be a parent and who doesn't.

hope that entertained you OP

I'm with bunty YABAC

What a nasty small minded post. Along the lines of some others on here that say things like "all infertile women have mental health issues" (while linking to "evidence" which is just a paper saying many couples suffer depression after failed fertility treatment - no kidding).

The 17% success rate varies hugely from clinic to clinic. Some in the UK have 55% success rates (and in Spain 60%), so perhaps we should be looking at why some clinics are offering such a poor service.

For anyone going through this, I was ttc for 10 years, miscarried once and had a successful pregnancy on my 7th ivf cycle (two funded by NHS, 5 others by me). I am now 15 weeks pregnant again (fingers crossed) after my 8th cycle. I do realise that I am so, so lucky to have been able to fund that (just about) and hate the idea that others are denied it because they havent got home equity/generous parents/a good salary.

"But the difference between fertility treatment and the vast majority of other treatments is that fertility isn't going to get worse because of long waiting lists."

You can't seriously be arguing that fertility problems are not time sensitive?

Long waiting lists can mean that couples completely miss out on having children.

One thing though Outraged, with many people not ttc until their thirties and then waiting a couple of years for things to happen naturally before they are put on waiting lists, fertility does actually 'get worse'. Your chances of ivf being successful after 37 are much lower than late twenties or early thirties, so a three year waiting list can make a big difference.

Congratulations Lambzig :)