to think a biological child is not a right

[Aribura]

and the NHS should not fund IVF in favour of vital medications for already existing people e.g. cancer drugs being funded?

I'm feeling masochistic this evening and am looking forward to munching on some biscuits and getting my ass handed to me.

OP I truely hope you never find yourself in the position of needing IVF, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
After 2 failed private cycles, I now have a beautiful 2 year old DD that was a result of an NHS treatment.
I'm now waiting for the comment 'but you adopt', yeah cause that's real easy!

EatsBrains - so should we just close all the mental health facilities? Because there's no provision for those in your list of priorities.

If your concern is financial, OP, IVF isn't the biggest issue. What would save more money is if people stopped going to A&E every time their kid gets a temperature (and I've seen so many threads on here telling people to do just that) or calling an ambulance to take them to hospital because they can't drive.

Aribura, you are heartless.

You must never have known the heartache of yet another friend announcing they are pregnant, whilst you fear, constantly, that you are never going to know that feeling. When you realise 4 years after your wedding that every other woman of non-menopausal age who was a guest at your wedding has had at least one child, that feeling of hating yourself.

I hope you never do.

What would save the nhs money is if people stopped going out, getting paralytic and then pitching up at A&E needing their stomach pumped or face stitched where they've fallen over or got in a fight.

What a cunty thread to start

Dowager - Mental health conditions that tend to get treated in this country actually fall into points 1 - 4 e.g. life threatening, potentially life threatening, etc - and many of those not very well. I actually through family have personal experience of serious chronic mental health problems and tbh the level of treatment available is often very poor.

Where I live you won't get treatment on the NHS for mental health issues where you are just very unhappy. You will be assessed and then told about charities and help you can pay for.

This argument really grinds my nads.

1. No, of course having a biological child isn't a "right".

1. People do have rights to a family life and to control over their own fertility. So there are rights involved in this

1. Infertility is a physical, medical problem.

1. IVF is one possible treatment.

1. The NHS entitles people to treatment for medical conditions, even ones that won't kill them.

1. IVF (and other fertility treatment) is not giving someone a biological child. It's just trying to treat a medical condition they have.

1. The only non-taxpayers in this country are the super rich. The unemployed pay VAT.

1. You don't have to know anyone suffering from infertility to understand all of this and have enough empathy (not much, really) to understand that itmust be very painful to want to have children and for your body to fail to do what you expect it to.

1. If you think people denied IVF "should just adopt", you are an ignorant twat.

The right to a child is a right - in that something that should not be prevented by the state, or indeed anyone else. ie it's completely wrong to sterilise people without their consent. That is however a completely different issue to if the NHS should fund it, it's got nothing to do with if it's a right or not.

People who have ivf are already existing people OP, with health issues of their own, or they'd be able to conceive naturally.

Let's just stop all medical treatments apart from cancer ones, eh? Because according to these threads that's all that matters.

You are heartless, doing this for fun. What a cold, bitchy thing to do.

When I approached the NHS for funding the list was so long that I would have passed the age deadline that was in place at that time.

My infertility was indirectly caused by the chronic health issues of my DH. Perhaps I should have divorced him and married someone else to save a few quid in treatment costs.

Wake up soon OP, and start composing an abject apology to your mean, sorry little thread.

I hate the cancer treatment argument.

this is just an example (which i dont agree with) somebody could have lung cancer after smoking 40 years. Now to me almost everyone knows the risks of smoking so why does he desrve the help of the NHS When a couple who are living a heathy lifestyle are denied a chance of having a family

I wonder how the OP is feeling this morning? Masochistically enjoying the thread as she had hoped (not that it's been remotely fighty or biscuit-happy), or feeling ashamed and embarrassed?

Wonkylegs you're right, my apologies. I was thinking of OA (which I have) which is expensive to treat but not necessarily life limiting. I'd woken with one of my three IVF children when I posted, blearily incensed by the OP.

Rights and responsibilities are not always completely black and white, are they ?

If you look at priorities you can see that it's higher up the list of priorities that every child in the world should have enough food to eat ( see save the children thread " 300 children ..." ) and access to clean water, than perhaps that we are able to have more children in the developed world. But life isn't that simple is it ?

And I remember how sad I felt at times just TTC DD1 during that year of waiting and hoping. So can only imagine the pain involved in some people's journey's towards mother-hood. Best of luck to everyone here

The happy thing about this thread is the response.

The "right to a child" bollocks is regularly trotted out on various Internet forums, and usually plenty of people chime in to agree.

Nice to see on corner of the web where this piece of "common sense" (so different from good sense) isn't accepted readily by the fertile and happily child free.

I hope your ashamed of yourself today op. It's people like you who make people ashamed of infertility. Should the NHS only be used by cancer patients now?

Im so glad I don't know anyone as selfish, narrow-minded and damn fucking rude as you.

I hope you have enjoyed yourself.

Good luck to everyone who's trying. And sorry for what you are going through.

Let's change the tone of the thread and focus on the right of every baby brought into the world receiving the love that adults, in a decent world, should be extending to each other.

my heart goes out to people with fertitly problems, even though dd took 8 months ttc they where the longest 8 months of my life and the disappoinment every month when i got my period was like hell i got depressed and angry with myself. Then when i did manaaged to get a BFP i had a massive bleed( every thing was fine)

i really don't know how couples hold it together after trying years and suffering MC

Can we say that anything is a "right" in life?

Who says we have a "right" to a roof over our heads, food in our bellies and clean running water?

Out of everything in life I would not want to lose though I can't imagine a bugger head fuck than being desperate for my own child and not being able to have one.

I was very lucky that out of 5 pregnancies (3 living children) the longest I waited to conceive was 4 months. To someone that was desperate to be pg that was a lifetime! I really don't know how other woman cope (except for the fact they have too) and will happily have my taxes used to help them

Marriedinwhite you are so lovely. I often think it when I read your posts.

I don't think that there can be any natural rights at all, susie. What they tend to be is statements of the overarching, very high level principles of a society.

Well if a biological parent is not a right, all parents should be vetted and screened before being allowed to conceive that would save a lot more money

I think knowingly posting such an emotive op with little thought or justification, and knowingly expecting a bunfight is a pretty poor show by the op. If they were bored they could have read the life limiting illness topic, or the infertility boards and gained a little perspective.

Biological child, sorry.

what a nasty post, after a number of miscarriages my friend was suicidal every month, so is treating the mental health issues related to her fertility issues more worthy than treating the issues.

It makes more financial sense for the NHS to provide IVF than not. Because if you cancel all NHS IVF, you have more people going abroad where the rules are less strict and they are more likely to have multiple embryos implanted, creating more demand for complex and costly ante-natal, post-natal and delivery care - and life-long disability (I'm not having a go at parents of multiples, just stating the health economics - there are higher levels of disabilities across the whole population of twins and triplets.)

Health economists have crunched the figures very carefully and applying the current NICE guidelines (which recommend a certain number of cycles, using up all viable fresh and frozen eggs in women under 40, IIRC) are the best use of resources.