Not to want to take an Orange Person with me to a business meeting?

[Hopefullyrecovering]

The business is professional services. We went out to a client and the graduate in our team came with me. She was bright orange. Literally bright orange. I could see the client visibly wondering whether or not the orange would rub off onto him during the handshake. It looked grotesque and thoroughly unprofessional. There was an accompanying issue of shedloads of make-up. Which was similarly unprofessional This girl does not need it. She is perfectly nice-looking (I believe although there was so much orange, and fake lashes etc that it is difficult to tell)

So, AIBU? And if IANBU, how on earth am I going to raise this issue?

How is that ridiculous? Inappropriate is inappropriate, thats the point.

we had this law professor at Uni who had waist long blond hair, mega tan, leather skirts and red blouses style of dress. She was very clever and published loads of articles and ran her own law firm as well as being a professor.

people whispered, but I have always been slightly in awe...

I would not care how anyone dressed, as long as they BEHAVED professionally.

We run an employability course for our students in how to compromise/moderate your fashion sense and demeanour in order to get the job of your dreams.

More places should give instruction in how to do this. Our students have really appreciated the guidance.

Maybe it is better if it comes directly from you, the department head, rather than somebody she has to work with daily?

Use all your tact and explain it is pretty hard to come across as genuine and be taken at face value, when all most people can see is fake eyelashes and fake tan, and that it may make it harder for her to progress in her role as clients may not be able to see past her clubbing gear and judge her performance on what they can see rather than how she performs.

In my first job, I was told that my home knitted cardigans were miles away from the image I presented at the interview, and although my sandals were comfy, most of the women slipped into presentable shoes when they got to work, rather than dressing down the footwear, and for my first trip abroad, I really needed to pack a few good suits. I took it on the chin. I had to.

Chandon, but I suppose that professor got to that position by her brains, not her dress sense. I will imagine that he way of dressing was a privilege that came after her status, not before?

It also - frankly - depends on whether or not you want to belong to that sort of profession.

Personally, I find it hideously stuffy and whilst I always dress 'smart-cas' for teaching, I don't think personal appearance makes very much difference at all in my profession. I am judged principally on how much I publish, what committees I sit on, and how much weight I pull in the department. I have colleagues who dress permanently in sweatpants and trainers, and one such has been head of dept in the past. I know someone else who is a proper goth and fairly senior in her dept.

You can often tell the difference between the administrators and the academics because the former look all polished and we look we like last bought clothes from M&S in 1992 on good days. I really like that we are judged on what we actually do, which I think doesn't happen in many jobs.

There is a compromise in belonging to any profession and for me it is long hours and not much money in exchange for lots of freedom to manage my time and dress how I want.

quint, interesting, I had not thought of that. I always assumed she had always dressed and looked that way.

Like RevoltingPeasant said, you have a choice: I am one of the scruffy ones (though not sweatpants), so I chose a profession where nobody minds. And the reason nobody minds is not that they are particularly tolerant but because the effectiveness of my work (writing books, purveying information, dealing with students) is not affected by the smartness of my appearance.

If I was in business and my jobs was to convince clients of the solidity of my firm, then the smartness of my appearance would be relevant to my effectiveness. Image influences results: the image of the scruffy scholar is fine, the image of the scruffy banker or city lawyer less so.

People shouldn't go into jobs without considering what the requirements are. If you are not prepared to work on your people skills, do not become a teacher. If you are not prepared to do lots of exercise, do not become a professional footballer. If you are not prepared to look smart, do not go into the city. If you are not prepared to spend your holidays in stuffy libraries do not become an academic.

I'm a uni lecturer and I have to dress smartly otherwise people assume I am a student and start banning me from the staff restaurant and photocopiers.

Are you in a very large department then, Boffin? And don't you have staff cards?

"HomeEcoGnomist Sat 19-May-12 12:16:23
Stop with all the 'get HR to write a new policy/pretend they have chats with everyone' nonsense!
"
If there is a deficiency in the dress code then it needs to be changed, surely?

I think HR will probably argue that it is covered by the rule in the personnel manual that make-up should be discreet. The rules are drafted generally rather than specifically, and they could, I imagine draft pages of specific stuff if they wanted to.

I can't say too much or I will out myself, but let's just say it's a somewhat impersonal institution on many levels given its size.

IMO it is the OP and the client who are being unprofessional.If you have any respect for this person at all, just talk to her. Honestly and openly.

She may, as you say, be a little naive and genuinely unaware that her looks are causing people to judge her. She may be grateful for your explaining it to her and modify her appearance accordingly.

She may feel strongly that she should be judged purely on her abilities and that whether or not she wears fake tan is not a suibtable reason to be looked down on. It may be that she has strong opinions on the subject and progressing on her own terms is more important to her than progressing on someone elses.

The point is you will never know unless you talk to her. I can guarantee it is your honesty she will appreciate either way.

To discuss her, behind her back, in such a patronising and belittling way is wrong. Plain and simple. (and don't even get me strated on the clients "look", just vile)

My friend has a similar thing with a recent graduate work experience girl. Only 21 but with tattoos on her hands of naff quotations. Fine her choice etc etc but the job is high level corporate fundraising (dealing with CEOs, politicians, royalty) my friend (very senior and experienced) considers this girl has cut herself off from being able to apply for swathes of jobs because of her tattooed hands. She doesn't know whether its worth saying anything as unlike fake tan the deed is now done...

I think that anyone who thinks the client behaved appallingly has never worked in professional services. When you're paying someone £500/hour for their advice, you expect them to bring people with them who look like they might one day be paid that much. Not an extra from TOWIE.

And if you were going to meet a lawyer to discuss something very important and you were paying a lot of money for, like your divorce, your will, a power of attorney, would you feel you could trust them if they looked like they were about to hit a bar in Magaluf?

You can dress how you like out of work. In work, you should dress how the people paying you expect you to dress.

Madame Messy

I tried to respond to your post earlier, but evidently did not post my response properly. You okay? I don't like the sound of those bruises :(

This young woman has clearly chosen the profession she's in, knowing it's a conservative one. She must know that she doesn't look like the others there and I'm sure she's glad of that (apologies, OP, but you're not her generation so she wouldn't expect to look like you anyway.)

I think you could, as a mum like figure, speak to her about it. You could choose a Friday evening (so that she can go off and sulk/sort herself out over the weekend) and say to her that you've noticed how bright she is (no pun intended) and that you think she'll go a long way in the business. HOWEVER, she must have noticed it's a conservative profession. Tell her you want to say something that was said to you when you were her age. (How will she know it's a lie?) Say that that you've found it's better just to be noticed for doing a fantastic job than for the way you look. Remind her how hard it can be for women at work. Tell her you learned that you had to buy a uniform for work so that your appearance didn't affect the way you were viewed. Say you tried having one wardrobe - just as you were saying above - but that you found the clothes weren't conservative enough for work or fun enough for day.

I think she could do with going to a personal shopper somewhere like Selfridges for some advice. There are ways of looking good in a work uniform. There are ways of being an individual.

If she thinks that her look means she's at risk of not being taken seriously, then she should know she has to change something.

I've been dithering over whether or not I should have a quiet word or whether to get one of the managers to have a quiet word.

The issue is that I am so very much older than she is. I mean I could tell her the toothpaste story (which would be true - see upthread - for where I repeatedly turned up for work with toothpaste on my chin) but she wouldn't as you say expect to be dressing as I do. Nor do I in any way think that my dress sense is anything anyone would want to replicate. I thought one of the younger, funky managers, also in her twenties would do a better job of getting through to her. Also it would be a biggy for me to say anything to her.

But the upside is that if I do it, then at least it is contained. If I tell her line-manager, then it becomes an open piece of feedback which could potentially form part of a discussion at a ratings/promotion meeting, in the way that the long-haired issue did. FWIW, that chap has never been promoted since that debate. Despite cutting his hair. He's always known now as the man who used to have long hair. These things stay with you, rather unfortunately.

If I went to work as a night club promoter my dull conservative office attire suitable for courts and client meetings would not get me very far. The same works the other way around.

BTW, you can get away with dressing quirkily in most professional environments these days. I know someone who headed a department at a major law firm with a pink streak in her hair. Other women I know have scarlet nails or a bright lipstick as their "thing". The one thing they all have in common is that they are all very well groomed and their quirk is obviously a quirk rather than an inability to dress appropriately or apply a suitable amount of make up or whatever.

I'd do it yourself personally. I know it makes it a big thing in some ways, but as you say it keeps it 'off record'. It would also probably be more likely to sink in.

I agree with you entirely about supporting juniors, though obviously with the caveat about assuming they haven't missed a critical point, and even then it's possible to pick it up supportively.

Out of interest, DH, do you see much orangeness in your firm? From professional staff? Genuine and interested question.

In point of fact, no. Orangeness is confined to the receptionists (another whole issue already touched on upthread). But unconventionality isn't.