Not to want to take an Orange Person with me to a business meeting?

[Hopefullyrecovering]

The business is professional services. We went out to a client and the graduate in our team came with me. She was bright orange. Literally bright orange. I could see the client visibly wondering whether or not the orange would rub off onto him during the handshake. It looked grotesque and thoroughly unprofessional. There was an accompanying issue of shedloads of make-up. Which was similarly unprofessional This girl does not need it. She is perfectly nice-looking (I believe although there was so much orange, and fake lashes etc that it is difficult to tell)

So, AIBU? And if IANBU, how on earth am I going to raise this issue?

I have not read the whole thread but I work with university-age people. Thankfully, in my profession, no one gives a monkey's what you're dressed like, within reason. In fact, one of my old colleagues once got a comment on a student evaluation form because he'd worn the same shirt for two weeks

Nonetheless if this is a profession where image matters, she needs to know. Judging by my students, there are some who come from 'professional families' who know how to dress, present themselves at interview etc - and some for whom this is a new experience.

I wonder if this woman perhaps has never had anyone to talk to about this? I think you need to have a word. If you just quietly sideline her you are complicit in her not progressing, and that is really unethical imo.

whereas of course different in this world is generally not okay
what century are you actually living in?
fwiw I hat the orange look and do not want to do it myself but don't think less of anybody else because of the colour of their skin (whether fake or not) or their hair or what clothes they wear or what music they listen to or what school they went to or where they shop or what car they drive.
It's discrimination.

Okay point taken about calling the new intake pretty young things. It's only a mental label you know. I don't use it out loud. To me it was a statement of fact. They are pretty young things, with their whole future ahead of them.

@ Alan Carr unless your father fucked a wotsit, it aint natural

At first I dismissed the talk about discrimination as being utter nonsense, but I've been reflecting on this point.

There might be some form of class discrimination going on. If you think about it long and hard, the difference between orange and not-orange people could be one of race (to the best of my knowledge only white people dye themselves orange) but it could also be one of class, could it not?

My point is, if she is as intelligent as the op suggests it's entirely possible she is making a stand, in her own way, against the old boy's network.

She may not be, but the op won't know unless she asks.

To not do it yourself is to presume the other person not to be your intellectual equal.

it is not discrimination, its life. Some of these comments are beyond bonkers.

and really, fake tan as a feminist issue?

mydog, you do speak sense
That said, they may be intellectually equal, but the OP is her superior in the work environment - so would be expected to act accordingly

oh God OP, I hope you are not talking about my cousin who try's to make herself as orange as possible! Does she have ginger hair too which clashes soooo badly with said orangeness????

OP yes, that is what I was trying to say - it may be a class/ background thing.

Look, it is shit, but if people want to work in conservative professions, there are stupid rules to follow.

I used to work for a Russell Group university and we had a young lad turn up for interview wearing skinny jeans with no belt that showed the tops of his undies - for real. He was so bright and he talked about how he would be the first person in his family to go to university and how proud his parents were.

I don't know if his fashion sense changed during his degree, but it is the kind of thing that would absolutely debar him from many serious jobs in the future.

I do think the OP is being unreasonable (at least she was in the OP, obviously it's moved on since then), but why is no one really commenting on the disgusting manners of the client in this instance?

A new member of his adviser's team comes along and rather than behaving professionally towards her whatever his private view may be of orangeness he makes it clear, by exchanging glances with her senior, that he is looking down on her colleague because of her colour choice.

If he'd been my client (and thankfully I've never yet encountered such rudeness - and I've taken many graduates to many meetings) he would have been made aware throughout the meeting of my colleague's brilliance and ability to deal with whatever daft idea complex problem he required advice on.

I loathe orangeness, personally, but I would defend anyone's right to be orange if they wish to be.

We had someone coming trying to tell us something (on appointment) and they were very rude to our department admin (she was trying to set up the projector for them and they were being very dismissive and implying she would know nothing technical ). She told me afterwards, I told my boss and he passed on our not impressed-ness!

All the outrage about 'what you look like shouldn't affect your ability to do your job' always make me laugh.

I'm a female doctor. 9 times out of 10 when I introduce myself to patients at work (as Dr Gasman) they then revert to calling me a nurse. Sadly outdated notions still exist in society and appearance matters a great deal. If it didn't no one would bother to make themselves orange!

Yes, there may be an element of 'class' here - but I would far rather be told that I didn't look right for a job than compromise my promotion prospects. She might then choose to ignore the advice (with the arrogance of youth) but at least she has the information.

I look around some of my younger colleagues (and I'm not even that old) and think WTF do they think they are wearing. It is hard enough to be perceived by patients as a female doctor without your colleagues running around showing navels/ cleavage and wearing gladiator sandals (in an environment with sharps around..) However attitudes do change - when I first graduated knee high boots were risqué. Last winter my standard work wear was knee length skirts, knee high boots and a little cardie. Boden do me proud.

Oh and I agree that you need to get her line manager to speak to her as you are significantly more senior than her.

My sister is/ was heavily into tattoos and piercings. She is now a primary school teacher.

She is savvy enough to realise that most parents don't want this as a role model for their children so she has a work wardrobe of great complexity to hide her body art.

Her boyfriend (who works in liberal media) doesn't understand why she bothers to cover up. I think this just reveals his immaturity and failure to comprehend how the world works. Yes, she might singlehandedly trailblazer for people with alternative tastes to succeed in teaching (she is by all accounts very good at her job) but she would I am sure take a hit professionally. Far better to be alternative as a head teacher than a 3 years qualified teacher.

Ok, imagine this scenario, the product this people are trying to sell you cost thousands of pounds, they are trying to convince you they take the business seriously and are the kind of people that would take good care of your money and interests, but when they arrive they don't look the part, admittedly, one of them was looking as coming out fresh from a wild party night in Magaluf, would you hand them your money? Perhaps not so easily.

I have no problems in befriending an orange person in the park and hand my money to her once I know her better, but if my only reference about her personality is a heavy tan, overdone make up and fake lashes, no... at least not yet.

We do business with who we like and who we trust, and looking the part is part of building that trust.

Stop with all the 'get HR to write a new policy/pretend they have chats with everyone' nonsense!
If it's causing you an issue - and IMO, it's fair enough, we've raised similar concerns with receptionists who are the face of the business - then you raise it. Don't get someone else to do your dirty work.

It won't be a pleasant discussion, but a tactful explanation based on your own personal experience of why it's an issue, should keep it contained. Otherwise the grad gets A Talk from someone she probably has little day to day contact with - so she knows it's a hot topic being discussed. Unless you actually do want her to feel humiliated rather than just get a subtle steer in the right direction...

More fool the client who may have someone smart and different moved off his/her account for not looking the part!

Maybe they don't want their brand to look like its walked off the only way is essex.

JoanOfNark Sat 19-May-12 09:48:19

Oh please, if I have self esteem issues can I got (sic) to work in my pyjamas and slippers, and expect nothing to be said.

JoanOfNark, don't be ridiculous.

" that he is looking down on her colleague because of her colour choice. "

I think this was the point I died a little inside.

She can't use fake tan properly. She chooses to continue to apply it in copious amounts. She isn't an oppressed minority, or a vulnerable person.

"Or it could just be people trivialising an important equality issue." Spot on AKMD

I worked somewhere in the City in the 90's when grown men and women were sent home to change their clothes if they were deemed inappropriate for the office. The argument was that the firm spent a fortune on its image, offices, furniture, literature - it was not going to let employees sabotage that effort by dressing sloppily. An orange person (or someone with heavy and inappropriate make up) would have been told to go away and sort themselves out. When I left their and went into another field I had to get a new set of clothes as the City ones were too smart and intimidating for the new role. Simple fact of life, you present yourself appropriately for the job.

"there" not "their" damn MN and the inability to edit posts

I used to head up a team that had loads of grads and apprentices. Some of the conversations I got involved in were hilarious with retrospect your landlady called me and would like you to remove the mannequin in a gimp mask, if you could go home and do it now I don't like the smear on the company reputation, thanks

If you respect her, which it sounds like you do, and you're involved in coaching and mentoring her my experience suggests she'll respect your opinion if you address it.

Two ways to go about it. You provide feedback on client meeting, highlight all good points but point out she has potential to go further but if you want to progress you'll need to be more conservative. Explain the compromises you had to make to get where you are. Or coach her to ask her about the meeting and the client reaction. To get into a grad scheme she'll have enough self-awareness of others to have probably have noticed herself. She might appreciate the support.

It is rubbish that anyone has to make compromises with their personal identity to get on. I still get judged on my appearance and I'm on old gimmer now. I just use it to my advantage. I love it when people realise I have a brain - usually about 15 mins into a conversation - the shock on their faces. With some old judgey pant knobbers I'm afraid I judge them forever more about their narrow mindedness! So perhaps I'm just as bad as they are!