Not to want to take an Orange Person with me to a business meeting?

[Hopefullyrecovering]

The business is professional services. We went out to a client and the graduate in our team came with me. She was bright orange. Literally bright orange. I could see the client visibly wondering whether or not the orange would rub off onto him during the handshake. It looked grotesque and thoroughly unprofessional. There was an accompanying issue of shedloads of make-up. Which was similarly unprofessional This girl does not need it. She is perfectly nice-looking (I believe although there was so much orange, and fake lashes etc that it is difficult to tell)

So, AIBU? And if IANBU, how on earth am I going to raise this issue?

Well presumably she's there to work not look pretty and be a delight. That's what I find patronising.
Definitely raise it as an issue that will affect her career, assuming you're her line mgr - if not, just say you'd prefer not to take her and tell her mgr why.

Tbh updating Tje dress code in generAL and reissuing might not be a bad thing, not Tje cowards way out in this case

Apols for.typong

YABVU

Good God! Have you ever thought that may be there is more to this than make-up? That may be she has self-esteem issues? That she wears this 'mask' to hide how she feels about herself/life/people talking about her? Everyone on here is so PC when it comes to mental health issues, but a girl with too much make-up (probably threatening to the OP too, if she is so good at her job and only just a graduate), and everyone forgets that there could be some deeper issue.

May be she does over do it with the cosmetics. So what? There are more important things in life.

May be you need to look at yourself, OP, and how you judge people. Not a nice trait.

Genuine question. Why do you think she is thick?

Only surely if she is intelligent enough to be performing well in a professional job then presuming her eyesight is not in question she can clearly see how other people in the company dress/present themselves.

She has chosen to present herself in the way she does. She is not a child. She is an adult who is more than capable of deciding what bloody make-up to wear.

Why do you presume she "doesn't realise how clients/colleagues view her". That is both patronising and judgmental.

I'm quite sure she can see the difference between her make-up and yours just as well as you can. Your attitude of "i'm just trying to help" would get my back up far more than someone who just came out and said something insulting. At least they'd be being honest.

Bigotry is vile enough but dressing it up as concern makes me think violent thoughts.

She is an adult. She is not violating the dress code. Keep your nose out. Sadly i'm sure if she chooses to stay in this profession she will very probably slowly morph into another clone. I for one hope she doesn't.

I'm not her line manager, which is why my thought was to have a word with her line manager. It's difficult to explain the structure which is quite flat in practice but there are a number of different grades. Broadly I head up the department, there are a number of senior managers and managers, then there are assistants and newly-qualifieds. The girl in question is an assistant, in her second year, but still effectively right at the start of her career.

If I have a word, it would almost certainly be traumatic for her, no matter how gently and tactfully I do it (and I can do gentle and tactful, honest) so it's probably best if I get her line-manager to have a word.

Somewhere I used to work had a account exec who dressed like she was on TOWIE. Clients commented (politely and discreetly), several words were had several times and nothing changed, she continued to be baked and wear crotch skimming leopard print mini skirts.

So she didn't get taken to clients any more. She didn't get promoted as you couldn't take her to clients and she got moved from the prestigious client to a crap one so never got much of a chance to develop.

She was a good account exec, certainly no worse than the rest of the intake in that period, but she wasn't good enough to overcome the fact she looked daft in an office environment. So you can only look stupid if you're SO brilliant you can change people's opinions. Not the case for 99% of people on the workforce I suspect.

Mydog, don't think the op has ever said she's thick, quite the opposite

For the record, I do not think she is thick. She is clearly not remotely thick and she is, as I have said, notably good at her job.

I did take her to the meeting, although I was worried about the make-up issue, and the client's reaction did sort of bear out my concern.

I've seen the 'orange' look everyone is debating, it is usually doubled up with the most horrendous stained hands, with brown knuckles, smeared brown/orange/white patches.

IMO I'd have trouble taking someone seriously in business if this was their appearance. I'd be thinking, if they cannot put on fake tan properly or see themselves as orange in the mirror then how can I trust them to do a good job for me. I would be concerned about their judgement.

It would be the same if she worked in a salon, I wouldn't use her cause I'd presume I'd end up looking like her!

So although she is good at her job, I wouldn't get to know that as I wouldn't employ her in the first place.

(putting kettle on and getting my flame resistant suit on)

She basically stands out for all the wrong reasons, and she will meet prejudice against her capabilities if she dresses like an airhead or a bimbo, when in fact she is an intelligent girl who is doing her job notably well.

She is harming her career simply through giving out impressionism about herself that is "louder" than her actions (ie her performance).

Despite your actual words op you clearly do doubt either her intelligence or her eyesight.

You are presuming she either can't tell that her make up is different to yours or that she doesn't realise stuffy old "execs" will probably judge her because of it.

Perhaps consider the possibility that as an intelligent adult she is well aware of these facts but chooses to present herself in the way she prefers.

Oh please, if I have self esteem issues can I got to work in my pyjamas and slippers, and expect nothing to be said.
I can only imagine those saying yabu do not have professional jobs.

I do have a concern. But it is not about her brains. She's got plenty of those. I don't know her well enough to know whether the issue is one of self-awareness (ie that she hasn't worked out that she looks different) or non-conformity (she's worked out that she looks different and that different in her mind is okay, whereas of course different in this world is generally not okay).

I would imagine the girl in question came in on a graduate trainee scheme. She may not have looked like Orangelina on her interview / assessment. If she did, she would most likely have been deemed unsuitable, and the problem today avoided.

mydog yes but loads of people simply don't think about this stuff!

The number of times I've asked friends/family WHY they did something obviously dumb and they have uniformly said 'I didn't think....' They are mostly pretty smart too!

Going by your explanation: if this girl is smart and choosing to dress this way regardless of the way her peers look, then she is CHOOSING to limit her career prospects and shooting herself in the foot. She must also realise (by your logic) that others will judge her for it and is presumably happy with that. Therefore if the OP chooses to double-check this by having a word (or asking someone else to) there won't be any harm done.

Then ask her. In those words. Respect her intellect and ask her.

Why be all "cloak and dagger" and go to hr or her line manager? It's making it into a huge and probably extremely uncomfortable situation for both of you. It also shows that you deem her incapable of discussing this sort of thing at your level.

Just have an open conversation with her as several pp's have suggested.

(xpost herrena )

mydog it's a fair suggestion, but can you imagine how awkward that conversation would be?

"Look, do you mean to look like that?"

No wonder the OP's not sure she wants to do it

If it is likely to effect her career, then yes, have a friendly word. My mum would say for interviews - clean clothes, pressed shirt, brush your hair and teeth, clean nails and shoes! I have interviewed people who obviously never had this advice. It never affected the outcome for me - I always needed top technical people. People do judge on looks and appearance, and I am sure if she rarely bathed, had greasy teeth and smelled a bit, no-one would advise you to 'leave her alone'.

Its what a lot of business is like. God help any man who turned up to a meeting tieless wherever I have worked. We always had a dress code - tan wasn't mentioned though.

Well in that case mydog the only conclusion would be that she has specifically and intelligently decided that career progression is less important than her makeup choices. That's fine, it's not a moral failing, and self-expression/social life is really important to some people, but presumably her employers should simply act accordingly and not promote her, based on her choice.

If the OP is head of department, it really would be heavy-handed for her to get involved personally, and would blow what is merely a breach of etiquette out of proportion. FAR better for the orange lass to receive an informal friendly "observation" from her immediate line-manager.

Am rather about remarks like " this is 2012" and women with "dull skin".
Dyeing your skin is just a passing FAD. Not dyeing your body does not mean you have "dull skin". It is an incredibly messy, time-consuming and expensive faff- around that an entire generation of women has bought into. Back in the 80s the overly-tanned look was seen as incredibly tacky and Page 3 trashy, and now the pendulum of fashion has swung the other way. But our daughters will think the Orange Folk are as weird and embarassing as facial hair on men and pubic hair on women is to today's 20-somethings.

Seriously garlic? What did you do about that? I would be taking that to the very highest level that I could access in my company and if that failed would take it externally or even tell the candidate so that they could choose if they wanted to take legal action. Can you say what your profession is or where you worked at the time? The company should be named and shamed.

There is a story in my industry (also professional services) of a CEO of mature years and conservative views who bumped into a young male employee in a meeting and noticed his brown shoes and informed him on the spot that he was sacked. Since this was the 1990s not the 1950s, when HR were informed that he had done this they went into a flat spin in their attempts to inform the CEO (tactfully) that this was not wise, and calm down the young man. But he never wore brown shoes again.

Ps. Yes OP, I would tell her, as gently as possible, that her excessive fake tanning is affecting the way she is perceived. She can choose to change or not but at least she will be aware.

I personally would find it insulting to e referred to a pretty young thing as I don't think that is at all a professional way to talk about your colleagues. In fact it comes across as rather sexist and almost suggests the young women in your company are there for decorative purposes only?