Not to want to take an Orange Person with me to a business meeting?

[Hopefullyrecovering]

The business is professional services. We went out to a client and the graduate in our team came with me. She was bright orange. Literally bright orange. I could see the client visibly wondering whether or not the orange would rub off onto him during the handshake. It looked grotesque and thoroughly unprofessional. There was an accompanying issue of shedloads of make-up. Which was similarly unprofessional This girl does not need it. She is perfectly nice-looking (I believe although there was so much orange, and fake lashes etc that it is difficult to tell)

So, AIBU? And if IANBU, how on earth am I going to raise this issue?

Why do people in England dress for the beach when they are going to the office?

We need to look over the Channel a bit for lessons in style.

Hopefully, next time take her to a meeting with the Hasidic Jew client who won't shake hands with women- no rubbing-off worries there

Was she orange but appropriately dressed, or was her whole style a bit TOWIE? How long has she been like this? If it's only a recent thing, is it possible that she had a total fake tan disaster and is well aware of how ridiculous she looks? Fake tan doesn't just wash off you know.

Also, have you checked with other colleagues-say, her line manger- as to whether they also think it's an issue? you do perhaps just need to check that it's not something of which you are disproportionately aware.

I remember a trainee colleague of mine in a city law firm being told to stop wearing blue nail polish. She acted very pissed off about it but in retrospect she did stop and was probably just being defensive to save face when she told us.

@ Stealth - to answer your question, no I don't think the policy needs to be updated. You can't write procedures to cover ever single minute possibility - your Staff Handbook would run to thousands of pages! (Although there is of course an investment bank that is rumoured to have reduced it's previous policy on what to wear to work to a mere 40 pages...)

At some point, people have to take responsibility for having a difficult conversation without pointing to a page in a policy book and saying 'look here, HR say you can't do x/y/z, that's why I am raising this with you.' That's my objection really - to people managers trying to abrogate their responsibility to manage because they feel a bit uncomfortable. OP has an issue she thinks she should raise with an employee - do it sensitiviely, yes, but don't fall back on 'because it's policy' for something like this. (OP - am not suggesting you are doing this, but some of the ideas for how to handle this are off the mark IMO and definitely not what I would counsel a manager coming to me for advice.)

Boffin's course sounds brilliant and I absolutely agree with the importance of teaching these things as part of providing a level playing field.

"Only last year we deliberated for an hour, a whole solid hour, about whether or not we could possibly promote someone (male) who had longish hair. Not in a pony-tail-therefore-works-in-IT sort of long but over the collar long. He didn't get promoted and he did get told to have a haircut."

So glad I don't work in your industry. This is the 21t century FFS. Not promoting someone because they've got long hair?! That's ridiculous!

But the ops business seems fairly concerned with the details of peoples looks. They expect people to know the unwritten rules. So why not just be clear?

OP, you just need to be straight with her and tell her that her style is going to hold her back if she wants to pursue client facing positions. No mucking around with HR, just a simple conversation. It might be awkward, but she should thank you for it in the long run.

I also work in the sort of place where anything other than black shoes is adventurous (I am "adventurous"!)

Well, that's the point, isn't it?
As adults, we are all aware that there are 'unwritten rules' to almost every aspect of our lives. Someone can pass on the wisdom without having to write every single thing down....someone like a manager, for example.

threeleftfeet Sun 20-May-12 12:29:48
" "Only last year we deliberated for an hour, a whole solid hour, about whether or not we could possibly promote someone (male) who had longish hair. Not in a pony-tail-therefore-works-in-IT sort of long but over the collar long. He didn't get promoted and he did get told to have a haircut."

So glad I don't work in your industry. This is the 21t century FFS. Not promoting someone because they've got long hair?! That's ridiculous!"

Is it ridiculous if wearing long hair might lose the firm contracts? I like going to work dressed in jeans. My niece has facial piercings. Perfectly sensible behaviour for the 21st century, but I can see why neither of us would make the grade as an ambassador. I am also glad I do not work in an industry that has a dress code- because it wouldn't suit me. But I don't see the point of taking a job in such an industry and then complaining about it.

at Robin. That thought had occurred to me.

I am glad about Boffin's university course, which sounds absolutely fabulous to me. Although I was frustrated initially, in retrospect there is something that actually makes this issue about inequality. These rules (although not in fairness unwritten) do go some way to perpetuating it.

I agree there's an equality issue.

Some people will have come from a background - school/parents/great course like Boffin's - where they have been told these things.

Other people will not.

That is why you are totally doing the right thing by telling her. As has been said twice before - giving her the information to make an informed choice.

equality issue? What, of orange vs non-orange?

The backgrounds of who will have not mentioned about going into work looking like an oompa-loompa are wide and varied, and its more than a little insulting to assume its poor and uneducated folk who don't know these things.

Thing is this whole TOWIE/Jordan hooker look is so widespread it has become the norm to many young folk. They really don't see what us old codgers see. My niece has 2 degrees, is a very mature, hard working young lady who is naturally gorgeous but insists on the fake tan, false eye lashes, 7 inch heels when she goes out. She looks awful where as when she is dressed down she is stunning. All her friends are the same, they really think they all look gawjus.

We have one in the office who is probably of an age with me (early 30s), but who pitches up with really long obvious acrylic nails, false lashes I suspect fake boobs and the full on oompah loompah look. She is actually from Essex with a strong accent

We're not externally facing, but despite knowing she's quite good (not exceptional) I still get distracted by her TOWIE-ness. I then berate myself for my judgy-pantedness , but it is rather distracting talking about a serious subject with a fully grown woman whose false lashes are on a bit squinty...

I've also noticed that when she says something daft, she gets pigeonholed as being a bit thick, rather than simply have said something that sounded a bit thick.

I think a quiet, tactful word (with some praise) at this early stage would actually be doing her a favour.

Also don't know if it applies in this case, but the organisation I work for, there are definitely regional norms in women's dress (male attire doesn't seem to vary much except in IT).

Some looks wouldn't warrant a second glance in a northern office (or an IT location) but would get the full cat's bum in central London.

Some of our graduates who have moved to join have found this a bit of a surprise (and no it's not fair).

I can't see why there's even any discussion that your colleague needs to be given guidance on this issue. DH and his colleagues will quite openly discuss how they ought to dress for meetings with different organisations as part of preparations - they see it as part of the image of their business, and as such, as much part of professional behaviour as arriving on time and well prepared for meetings.

Actually, QueenofPlaids is right about the regional norms. Very noticeable difference in expectations between the north and south, I think - and the interesting thing is that it seems to date back to the 19th century at least.

Sorry, it is way up thread now, but i remember discussions about 10 years ago about about how kinky it was to wear knee high boots to work. They'd be fine now, but only on dress down days or with a long skirt. Knee high boots with a short skirt suit would still get this face from many partners. Tis a conservative world I move in...

I would not care how anyone dressed, as long as they BEHAVED professionally

Yes, but in professional services people do care about how their representatives (in court, at negotiations etc) look. It is one thing not to care how a colleague looks-you're not 'invested' in her/him in the same way-and quite another not to care how someone who is representing you looks. Even quite liberal people might default to a rather conservative mindset, just to safeguard their position. And that is something of which people in professional services have to be aware. As I said pages ago, there is no need for the OP to issue diktats, she can just gently remind the Orange Person how it is and let Orange Person make her own decisions about it, in the knowledge of the harsh realities.

And I agree that there is a class element to it, but if someone does not know the unwritten rules because of their class background, it is far more equitable to tell them then to let them carry on not knowing 'the form' and be judged/ discriminated against by everyone who does.

There are some posts upthread tacitly boasting about the poster's high-minded disregard for appearance. I don't think there is actually anything admirable about being scruffy, in any job. My father was an academic and always said this. Fine not to wear a suit and tie, but not even looking clean is just slovenly and unpleasant for people around you.

If I needed a lawyer in court to represent me I'd rather have Rumopole than Keith from the Prodegy.

Would they do the same job? Possibly. Would Keith hack off the judge and possible affect the trial? Quite likely.

That's life.

Interesting thread.

I've worked where people get judged and very heavily judged on their appearance. In one firm not only were appearances judged but accents as well. I knew all this before working there. I always have a pre-work visit, usually around lunchtime to see what the dress code is so I don't turn up either under or over dressed. No point wearing a suit and pearls if everyone else is in trousers and tops is there?

The trouble with make up and fake tan is that it is very hard to cover clearly in a formal dress code. One person's discreet is another's caked on slap after all. Some people definitely use heavy make up as a security blanket. How do you go about clarifying the exact shade of tan that is appropriate? How thick should foundation be before it's too thick?

It's all about not standing out in an office isn't it? Most people want to blend into the background. This person obviously doesn't want to look like everyone else but probably doesn't see that it's disadvantaging her.

Here you go OP, personnel can use this as a guide in the dress code.

YANBU, but I do think you missed your opportunity when you didn't comment as soon as she walked in the door. 'Are you off on a big night out tonight then?'
'Yes/No'
'Oh right, just you have quite dramatic make up on, some of our more conservative clients might find it a bit distracting. Besides you are so pretty you don't need it.'
I've never had anyone comment on my image but I would be mortified if people thought I looked tarty. I can easily look tarty as I have an hourglass figure (or I did before I was pregnant) and flattering clothes tend to be close fitting. For work I stick to higher necklines, longer skirts (I can get away with a mini with ballet flats worn with a covered up top) and conservative footwear. I think wearing glasses also helps me be taken seriously. I work for a Northern law firm and on the whole people dress smartly - lawyers in suits or dresses and everyone else in smart seperates or suits. I have been a bit shocked on occasion by some co workers the same age as me wearing short dresses, bare legs and really high heels and not only do they look uncomfortable they also look like they've come straight from a walk of shame!