childrens centre attracting the wrong kind of mothers

[Morph2]

i'm not BU as i'm not too bothered (more disappointed) about the decision but others are very angry. Local surestart (only built last year) ran a group for walking to school age every week. Has been scrapped due to funding issues (ok i understand that its a recession after all).

HV unofficially told my friend the decision was because the session was "attracting the wrong kind of mothers". We've started attending another session run by the council which is abit of a trek away (they have started to charge a £1 a session but its worth it, i drive so i can get there), and when i filled out my new started form i had to tick (for monitoring purposes) if i was in one of the groups they specified, i wasn't so i didn't tick, just thinking maybe if enough people don't tick this session will be stopped too :(

Ds was very very ill as a newborn and ill up until he started school. I don't think his illnesses were exclusively middle class. Other than actively going to the sure start centre once a week the only support I got was being sent on a funded baby massage course by my HV. Weirdly the group was a combined one for those with PND and those with babies with on going health issues - not a natural mix at all.

bisjo Sun 06-May-12 14:58:04
Where are 'middle class' mums supposed to go?

Costa Coffee and the library apparently

And the other thing of course is that lots of studies show (Including EPPE maybe? I don't have my uni books near to check) that disadvantaged children do better in socially mixed environments.

So really it sounds like you need some m/c families at ccs to role model (gross generalisation) positive behaviors and aspirations to families that may not have had that encouragement/expectations growing up.

LaFata. That sounds logical. The alternative is some sort of ghetto for the economically /socially disadvantaged - how is this ever supposed to change if the two "sides" (for want of a better expression) never actually come together?

Very true. Certainly, the data is very clear in showing that the poor are hugely more likely to have most health problems... but that still doesn't mean that a certain minority of the middle classes are all in good health. So unless the services to help are made universal, they will always exclude those who do not fit statistical trends. Usually, it's about 5%.

Hamione no-one begrudges extra targetted support or the most vulnerable. I used to go to Eva Armsby CC that was set up with an open access play area - and then a set of private rooms off the courtyard for supported contact (presumably where there we're such severe problems in the family that they were only allowed to see DC under supervision. There was also a sensory room which could be booked for SN sessions - but was open to all when it was not booked. I think that is a good balance between inclusiveness and targeting.

Like KM said - babies are a great leveller. The sheer pain, fear and emotional upheaval of the early days meant I had more to talk about with any new mum than with my old bessie mates. I've never been in less of a position to look down my nose at anyone! I'm not sure why it's becoming a truism on this thread that 'certain' people would be alienated by the presence of 'certain' other people - but be entirely open to interference by busybody HV / support worker types. The mums I know who fit the description of needy often make a point of avoiding situations that they fear could trigger an intervention ( they are paranoid that HV/GP/teachers are just waiting for a chance to label them as 'bad mothers').

My 23 year old sister was Welcomed with open arms to her local SS with 3 children under 6. They faded away pretty quickly when they learned she was the nanny. That always makes me laugh.

If you still have a library...

The problem with saying that background of the mothers doesn't matter, is there are quite a few mums who have posted on this thread saying that they didn't feel they fitted in when they went to their CC and it was full of middle class/better off mums. And they stopped going. It may not matter to everyone, but it quite clearly does matter to some mothers.

And tbh I think you are being naive if you think the issues for mums are the same whatever their background. Years ago I ran a support play and stay session for mums with under 5's in one of the poorest areas of the country. A lot of the mums were in B&B's, living in overcrowded terrible housing and/or struggling to afford the absolute basics. Yes they had some issues in common with better off mums, but they also had issues about bringing up their kids that was absolutely related to having little money in awful housing.

The CCs around me only allow you to go to sessions if you live within their catchment area, I thought that was normal?

I get that CC have to meet targets though, as that's just the way all government funding is given - many many strings attached. Is a bit annoying though, as I might be a 'middle class mum', but I'm also a first time mum, and the first of my friends to have a baby, so actually the support (esp meeting other mums, regardless of whether they are middle class or not, or the same age as me or not etc) I've received from the CC has been really really valuable.

I guess i would be clssed as middle class own house, no benefits etc, but i have been using the cc services as dd has sn and her behaviour is getting worse since ds has been born 3 months ago, and we are going to parenting classes there to help us with her behaviour. It should be for anyone who needs the service

I'm suprised to read such naivety. Regardless of class, we all have the same health and social problems? Now, that is a very patronising middle class thing to say. I am most certainly not advocating integration but to pretend the inequalities don't exist is naive. Additionally, it is common knowledge that those from lower socio-economic backgrounds generally have poorer health (mental and physical).

Actually if you read what I said and you partially quoted out of context crashdoll you would see it's a bit different to that. What I actually said was this Being a new mum is a great leveller. Neither your body nor your baby cares what class you are and social and health problems are the same whether your household income is £12,000 or £120,000. and Social isolation, PND and good old fashioned loneliness can affect any mother.

I also made reference to actual academic studies I have read as did at least one other poster. I'm not basing my comments on "feelings" but evidence. Of course we could just amble along with the same old stereotypes or we could look at the evidence. I prefer the evidence based approach personally. It make people look less irrational or hysterical.

I did read your posts actually. I agree the above problems you stated can and unfortunately do affect mothers from all walks of lives. The issue is the resources accessed. Women from lower socio-economic backgrounds have poorer access to services and support. So, your experiences might be the same but they are also very different.

Secondly, I'm not sure if the irrational or hysterical was aimed at me but I am not yet a mother. I was also raised in a very middle class background. I am just aware that the way I've experienced things such as; mental illness has been very different due to my upbringing and area and financial situations. I hope I'm expressing myself clearly.

I agree that once you get past those first few months there is a separation as children get older. Certainly some people lack the education to know what resources to try to access in the first place - even those with a good education can find accessing services and help extremely difficult because if you don't understand the system it's really hard to play it.

My posts are really about those first few months after birth when the experiences of motherhood tend to be the same regardless of socio-economic status. At least from everything I have read. I have looked for studies that say there's a difference but as I said I could only find the one and it was quite specific to America. I would be interested to see any studies that look at this particularly and at the resulting findings. I've trawled my local university's online resources but didn't find anything conclusive.

Where I live there is no children's centre, no breastfeeding drop-in for hundreds of new parents, SALT waiting lists are so long as to be virtually useless, health visitor numbers have been reduced so much that there are roughly 1/4 of the clinics there were five years ago and there's no routine private one-to-one HV contact after the first 11 days post birth... because this area is not considered deprived enough. It is nothing to do with need. The need is still there. It is a disgrace.

My comments about evidence based information and the implications are general and not aimed at anyone in particular but are a reflection what I have witnessed when unqualified statements have been made. Those who believe in evidence based information would probably agree that there's a danger of looking irrational or at worst hysterical if statements are based purely on feelings.

but what is your evidence, KM? one study about PND in afro americans?
I'm sure you're right that more research would be helpful

It was a problem in one children's centre I attended, there was no mixing, the 40ish ex big shot business women who were now super mums made any one else who attended groups KNOW they were not welcome

the "it" mums travelled around all the local childrens centres (a different one every day it sounded like) in their big cars which they parked illegally outside, the childrens centre was deliberately placed within a council estate to attract the kinds of mothers who were NOT driving all round the county every day with the same clique from play group to play group, but it wasn't working, some did try, I myself tried and one suggested to me that "perhaps I should try the young mums group" - I was in my early 30s! It was just their way of saying I wasn't Cath Kitson or Boden enough to be there!

Actually ninah I think I waded through about 12 separate studies, including one meta-study that included at least one or two of the others. I'd have another look but I nearly lost the will to live last time I don't currently have access to the University's library resources. Besides, my point was that I couldn't find any. Unless you want me to evidence what was not there? In which case you'll either have to take my word for it or take the time and have a look yourself.

no, you're right, there is a dearth of research, even the early intervention stuff - more needs to be done
I'd really like more, detailed, longitudinal evaluation
in the meantime we have common experiences

and yes I have looked

The evidence for Sure Start comes from the US and influenced current programmes heavily.

Kathy Silva is the academic who probably had the most sway with Government on this - she's based in Oxford but I think her original work took place in the US.

Yup there's so much stuff but you're right, there's no real longitudinal evaluations with sample sizes that are large enough to give significant results.

I'd just like to know what the influence of various socio-economic factors is on the likelihood of developing PND. You'd think someone would have looked at that in particular but apparently not. Or if they have they've hidden it well... I've been told several things that I believed to be true until I tried to find the evidence to back it up and it wasn't there. Such as:

Things like older mothers are more likely to get PND
Younger mothers more likely to get PND
Heterosexual couples more likely to find the mother has PND
Career women are more likely to get PND

Couldn't find evidence for any of it. So yes, absolutely agree more studying needs to be done but I'd love to bust some of the myths. Well not me personally, I'd do a really poor job, but I'd like to read the summaries!

it's frustrating isn't it? you trust a certain premise is built on a sound foundation but then you spot the gaps ... I'm fascinated by the whole principles of early intervention/education in the UK, more from pov of the child than the mother
It's become such a truism that catching children early has long term impact but I'm not sure how pristine the evidence for that is, either! I mean, it's an eminently sensible concept - but social mobility is lower now than in was in the 50s. Allegedly. I wish I had another lifetime to check it all out!

Yes it's soooo frustrating. I'm glad it wasn't just me who struggled to find anything. I thought it was me, but I asked the librarian to have a look too which is naughty because I'm not a social sciences student but needs must

I'm coming at it from the point of view of the mother but that's because it's a voluntary thing I do that has started me digging and because of this unique situation in my area which sees the two children's centres positioned at either end of the area on the periphery with nothing in the middle where the population of young families is most dense.

I am stumped as to how to word my reaction to this thread.

It seems everyone in the UK really is as Hung up on class as everyone on mumsnet seems to be.

So you should feel guilty if you're middle class, not use facilities designed for children and parents, if you're in the 'untouchables' class (via we're not talking your average wc mum here, we're talking seriously socially disadvantaged, right) you get invited to baby massage classes...

But never the twain will meet?

Maybe the next government strategy should be to implement a cast system in British society...

I don't think I've really exressed what I'm trying to say here, but I don't see much hope for the figure in terms of social mobility in the UK,
These boden V juicy couture conversations are very sad evidence of how there seems to be more and more segregation.