Aibu? to be pissed off at this: "The cost and social implications of using an infant milk should be considered when deciding how to feed your baby."

[Selyna]

WTF do Hipp mean by social implications?

Both methods of feeding a baby are acceptable so fuck off with the whole acting like ff is poison! my dd is perfectly fine but i hate this constant making me feel like a failure because i failed to bf although i tried so so hard!

*"I think it's fine to normalise ff, so long as one doesn't promote the view that it is better than bf "

Or that it's the same as breastmilk.

Or that it's equal to breastmilk.

Because of course it's not.

Breastmilk is the optimal food for the vast majority of babies.

Which of course makes formula a suboptimal food.

Doesn't mean that a mum can't or shouldn't choose a suboptimal diet for her baby if she feels that the disadvantages to her baby of using formula are somehow 'offset' (offset mind - not 'negated') by other things - like the dangers of prescription medicines in her own milk if she needs medication which is contraindicated for breastfeeding, or if she finds bf psychologically or emotionally unsupportable.

We all have to make compromises in life, even when it comes to our children. I know I have.*

I completely agree with that Shagmund, and I sy that as someone who tried and pretty much failed to successfully BF three babies. I gave up in a matter of a few weeks with all of them.

I do think though, that the supposed benefits of BF are probably in all honesty, not as clear cut and overwhelming as the BF lobby would like them to be, once other socio-economic factors are taken into account when comparing BF and FF babies. Given that their is such a strong bias at either end of the socio-economic spectrum to do one or the other, it will always be exceptionally difficult to know for sure where causation starts and correlation stops.

Kayano, so we should 'keep quiet' about how good bf is because it might hurt dome people's feelings? That would be very silly when breastmilk cam and does make such a difference.

Bigjessie - good post. Karmabeliever trying to defend her use of the term bf Nazi was incredibly stupid and ignorant.

Napa yes there are people who think formula is better. You can see how much they're getting, babies need iron, my milk was too watery etc.
There are also plenty of people who believe theres no difference. Plenty on this thread in fact.

If you google the phrase in the title you'll find it appears on all formula manufacturers' websites, often with a bit more information that makes it clearer what they mean: eg "Social and financial implications, such as the preparation requirements and the cost of providing formula until 12 months of age, should be considered when choosing how to feed infants"

That's on the Nestlé site, which also contains this gem, which you have to accept before entering the site...

"Our Baby Website mentions food, toddler milks and sometimes infant formula.

By clicking on the "I understand" link below, you confirm your understanding that Nestlé is supplying this information about formulas for informational or educational purposes."

Not for marketing purposes at all, then....

I am neither stupid nor ignorant. Holding a different opinion, does not make me either of those things.TBJ, I never said it was a meaningless term, I said I used it as a figure of speech to describe a way of thinking. There is a difference. For someone who is so offended, you are pretty free at dishing out the nasty insults yourself. If you want to avoid a repeat of the past, it starts by respecting a person's right to freedom - with their words and with their choices. Controlling images that people have access to, is the start of the control of peoples freedom - if you remember the past, and want to prevent it, then you need to remember that Hitler didn't jump straight into mass murder, he started with the eradication of the right to free speech, control of the press etc. If you look to other places in the world, where similar regimes are in place, they too have censorship and punishment for stepping outside the sanctioned view of the government.

I am merely saying that the militant pro bf lobby are on a path to dictatorship, but they should not be given unhindered permission by the state to impose their view and make everyone who does something different, feel like a bad person or a social pariah. Other options to bf are not something which should be hidden away like a shameful secret.

Interestingly, if I had used the word Stalinist, or fascist generally to describe any given attitude, I doubt I would have been jumped on, despite the fact that Stalin killed more people than Hitler.

I'm going to withdraw from this now - I've tried to explain my thinking, but I feel that some of you see the word nazi and jump in without even trying to see what I am getting at, even if I have used a phrase that you feel to be offensive. Fine for you to disagree - not fine for you to accuse me of racism and homophobia. I have not been personally insulting to you.

Didn't proof read. should say, I am not saying militant bf are on a path to dictatorship. Sorry

Op I felt exactly the same. I was not able to breastfeed for medical reasons although that was not my choice. When I saw this message it made me really upset. I've had endless comments made to me by health visitors, even strangers in the shops asking me why I'm not breastfeeding. I felt embarrassed to go out in the early weeks and bring out my bottle, tearful, spending hours on google looking into it all. I accept that breastfeeding for me would have been the preferred option but it dosent always work that way, and I whilst promoting breastfeeding is absolutely fine, i think it often goes too far. I was given a leaflet that said mummy if I could speak I'd say please breastfeed me!

What a surprise that whatmeworry has turned up desperate to dispute that Breast milk is best... You really must have a massive, insecure chip on your shoulder. The way you desperately try to dispute that breastmilk is far superior to formula is actually very weird.

Desperate?

Isn't it a bit desperate to accuse someone of being desperate - in capitals :o

But anyway - No, I just read the actual research, which is far from as clear cut as the stuff that is peddled by the pro BF lobby.

The only reliable predictor in all the research of less obese, healthier, more intelligent children is less obese, healther, more intelligent parents, not whether you BF or FF. And the best predictor of having those sorts of parent is class and wealth. The great irony of course is that most of these parenst were themselves not BF :)

IMO BF has now become yet another thing MC people use to feel superior about, and hector their social inferiors with, it long ago left any rational basis behind.

I was told that my baby should be on a vitamin supplement from 8 weeks onwards if he was breastfed but not if FF as bm didnt contain vit d and formula did.

That confused me a bit.........

I meant 'there' not 'their'. Obviously.

Just to clarify... the research about BF benefts in developing countries with poor sanitation and food quality is bang on.

But this data is usually combined with 1st world data to allow the BF Lobby to argue for the same benefits in the developed world as well.

Who is this 'pro BF lobby' exactly? The NHS? UNICEF? WHO? American Academy Of Paediatrics? Royal College of Midwives?

I find it very hard to believe that all of the above organisations would be pro breastfeeding is they didn't truly believe in all the benefits. After all, it's not like it would benefit them otherwise, is it?

Formula companies try very, very hard to make their formulas as much like breastmilk as they can. They can't make it anything like breastmilk actually, for a start breastmilk is a living thing, formula is not, but that doesn't stop them trying or trying to make people think that their own brand is the closest to breastmilk there is. Looks like they've done a good job on the last point...

I had to beg for formula milk in hospital like it was crack coccaine. People should be presented with the facts to make an informed decision after that it should be up to them. I had a midwife screaming at the in the hospital no more moo moo milk. I was seriously ill, and as it turns out due to the medication I was on I should never have been breastfeeding in the first place, I had to look into it myself and then the dr said you could breastfeed but your baby will need to be monitored for growth. It angers me. I would be happy to click a box on a website to say I have read all the facts, but social implications to me insinuates that I need to be aware I've made a socially unacceptable choice. It's gone too far new mothers who are vulnerable are getting bullied and it's wrong.

Screaming at you? Really?

midori1999: "Who is this 'pro BF lobby' exactly? The NHS? UNICEF? WHO? American Academy Of Paediatrics? Royal College of Midwives?"

It's quite weird, isn't it? Medical bodies, professional orgnaisations and charities who promote breastfeeding are somehow motivated by an evil agenda to make women feel bad. Formula milk companies, who make millions (billions, probably) of pounds out of selling their product, are just innocently trying to inform people of the facts.

It's a bit like the climate change debate - all the scientific organisations and academics have some sinister agenda to make us reduce our energy use, while BP, Exxon etc are as pure as the driven snow.

Yes, what is their agenda. Why does the NHS care if women breastfeed if formula has no risks?

Yep. Through the doors of the ward when she saw me with a bottle. If I'd gone in with a set of bottles and a job lot of aptimil they probably would have left me alone. There's nothing wrong with medical professionals, charities etc promoting breastfeeding. But it goes too far when medical professionals behave like that. I heard that the hospital had a target for getting people to bf, which is why prehaps they were like that. Of course, it's quite right that formula companies should not be allowed to advertise in a way to suggest that ff is a better option for the baby that bf, but when for whatever reason the decision has been made its incredibly hard to choose a formula, you can't get any assistance from medical staff and therefore you are forced to rely on info from the companies themselves.

"The main issues of course is that it would be almost impossible, and certainly unethical, to do a completely randomized controlled trial on bf vs. ff. You'd have to take the infants away from the mother, feed them by bottle with breast milk or formula in exactly the same way and never tell the parents or HCPs which way they were fed - I can't see any parents signing up to a study like that somehow!"

Err no of course they wouldn't/ And there is no need. There is no need to evaluate whether an intervention is as good or better than the physiological norm. No one evaluates whether using a wheelchair exclusively is better or worse than having full use of your legs.

But on the methodology - do you think ythere was a huge RCT which established that smoking causes cancer? I'd be interested to learn about how the ethical issues were overcome for that.

Or is there no "proof" smoking causes cancer?

I bf dd1 til 8 weeks. Then I stopped because it was so painful after a feed I wanted to actually cut my own breast off it was that painful. No idea what that was and no hcp seemed to know or help either, wish I'd been on mn as I probably would have got more help!

Anyway OP I felt guilty and a failure for ages, and jealous of people who could bf. It was illogical but every time 'breast is best' was mentioned would make my eyes fill with tears. I bloody know it is best because it was rammed down my throat every direction I turned, but no one could sodding help with proper advice could they!

But that's life and having DD2 cured me of the guilt I felt. (ff from day 7 as my milk had still not come in).

Stealth, I think their agenda is good - it comes from a well meaning place. However, something gets lost in the delivery and can result in people being bullied into trying to do something which isn't right for them.

Promoting bf as optimal is fine. Telling women that by ff they are giving their baby something unhealthy, which will make them sick, isn't.

Bf gives baby additional benefits, but ff is still providing a baby with nutrition.

But if bf helps prevent bad things, des it not logically follow that ff slightly increases the risk of those things hppening? I am utterly lost!
It's like saying of you don't wear a seatbelt its fine and there's no risk of anything bad happening, but wearing one does reduce your risk of injury - nonsense!

I had to formula feed with DD two years ago as I take medication that can be passed through breastmilk and they did not knwo at the time if that would have side effects. I was only told this just before the birth and was devastated and didnt leave the house with my baby to meet with friends for around 8 weeks as I was so ashamed of formula feeding (so midnight if you are still on here, I know how you feel and it does get better) and did have people comment to me.

I am (hopefully - terrifying 12 week scan tomorrow) pregnant again and now research says that there is a 20% risk of the baby having severe problems from the medication I have to take if I breastfeed (so obviously 80% chance its fine) versus none if I formula feed.

Some people have decisions to make like this that are terrifying, with little information to help, and statements about social implications and some of the assumptions that mothers who ff dont put their baby first really dont help. I have already been told by a close friend that I shouldn't have had a second child as I cant breastfeed and I am being cruel.

I hardly think formula is akin to not wearing a seat belt or smoking.

if you have two socio-economically different groups, you can post-control results to bench mark like with like and thus determine whether group As results really are better/worse than group Bs...

it can be done. I believe the Millennium Cohort study worked like this.

there have been other studies in which intervention was used to help more women BF in Group A, and then both random samples compared (Belarus study - ok a second world country)

people encountering difficulties in BF in hospital often find the support is rubbish, and comes down to 'don't give them formula' - this is due to lack of time, will and training. this is not a conscious attempt to make anyone feel bad.

I would agree with pickles that there are some very insensitive HCP's out there. Bearing in mind I wanted to BF, a midwife saying "it's just MacDonalds...you should learn to feed you own baby" when I asked for formula for my very sick and jaundiced baby wasn't that helpful. I did BF but only after I got out of that awful hospital, had some sleep and regained some sanity.