Aibu? to be pissed off at this: "The cost and social implications of using an infant milk should be considered when deciding how to feed your baby."

[Selyna]

WTF do Hipp mean by social implications?

Both methods of feeding a baby are acceptable so fuck off with the whole acting like ff is poison! my dd is perfectly fine but i hate this constant making me feel like a failure because i failed to bf although i tried so so hard!

Well said about the natural state etc.

I think she is right about we should be more concerned about the shit in processed foods and juice etc when they are older rather than bashing poor women around the face with a breast feeding manual when they have made their decision (willingly or not)

Oh and FSIDS have linked co-sleeping to SIDS so it is not recommended. There was a big thread about it on here not very long ago. It's even mentioned on the MN page on co-sleeping

TRIGGER WARNING

It's a "figure of speech"?!

I'm afraid you did NOT give a great deal of thought to my post.

It's a phrase in common parlance, because it means something very, very, very terrible. (Would you like me to tell you about the experiments on children just like mine? Mengele was quite fascinated by twins.) When we talk about nazism, we are directly referring to one of the worst events in human history. A state sanctioned mass murder of Jews, the disabled, homosexuals, communists, Roma travellers.

If the term was as meaningless, and figurative as you are trying to claim, you wouldn't have been using it, eh? It would not be so important to you. It is important to you, because it is a powerful term about very sickening things.

Do you use homophobic and disablist slurs to refer to things you think silly, too?
I don't know why you would diminish the atrocities, because I cannot see inside your skull. Although I have my suspicions.

The first time you used the term earlier, someone else pointed out part of why it was problematic. You were enormously offended at being silenced, was it?

You then followed it up by continuing to use the term, but in quotation marks, top of page 12.

And now you follow it all up by claiming that this censorship of an advert, and some mothers making other mothers feel shitty, "wouldn't be out of place in a fascist society". I think you still fail to grasp the sheer scale of what happened in Nazi Germany!

Meanwhile, while you try to dumb down some of the most forceful terms we have for humans' evil, for the sake of your little point here, events occur across the world, that ARE actually remotely similar to Nazism.

"It must never happen again". That pledge isn't being kept, and no fucking wonder.

Let's not
Get side tracked

Back to bf/ff

Agree with chandeline.

I am a staistician, I did look at the research, in the raw it looks nothing like the what is peddled by the pro breast lot. It is far less definite, it is usually hugely conflicted, every neutral review points this out from the first one in 1984 on in.

The science is just not there, and after 20 odd years its become a glaring problem.

Which is why the pendulum is swinging back again.

Yikes, from a bf/ff debate to Nazi Germany and Dr Mengele in 13 easy pages of comments!! I thought this was an interesting thread because of the issue the OP raises of the impact that pro-breastfeeding messages have on women who end up formula-feeding (as opposed to choosing to FF).

There is an issue here, I feel, in that the pro-bf message is out there and has permeated public consciousness to the point where most mothers who FF are either doing so out of necessity because bf didn't work or because they've heard the health message and aren't interested or they don't feel bf is practical / comfortable for them.

Is there a point that we've now reached where bf has got to maximum levels and can't really be increased by further public health messaging and pressure? 75% of women (roughly) in countries like the US and UK start off breastfeeding but by 3 months the majority have gone over to formula or supplementing with formula. Only about 17% of women make it to the full six months with exclusive breastfeeding (all 17% of them seem to be in my circle of friends and acquaintances somehow though ). There are reasons for this that go much deeper than women just not knowing or caring about the health benefits - from social issues, poverty, lack of maternity leave etc.

I think the health benefit message has been pushed sufficiently and it's time that those who are pro-bf focused their efforts on ensuring more support for women who want to breastfeed rather than browbeating the minority who don't or can't. Are there really any women out there anymore who still ff because they are stuck in a 1950s time warp and think that it's 'better'?

Kayano even FSIDS do not categorically advise against bed sharing/co sleeping. In fact, Dr. Helen Ball, who works closely with FSIDS and in the Durham Parent-Infant sleep lab is an advocate of bed sharing/co sleeping.

As for the research/evidence being wrong, the NHS must be 'pro breast' for some other reason than trying to save money and promote good health then...

Kayano think of it as a little illustration of social implications. Bf/ff nonsense threads get side-tracked when people misuse words.

Interesting fact: schools in Britain generally cover fascism, yet many people never realise the social implications of using the word to mean "an organisation did something I disagree with". No wonder the Powers That Be think we need telling about infant feedings' "social implications"...

And, yes, whatmeworry, I agree regarding the studies. I looked into them in more detail once I ended up FF-ing because I felt so guilty and they weren't as compelling as I expected.

The main issues of course is that it would be almost impossible, and certainly unethical, to do a completely randomized controlled trial on bf vs. ff. You'd have to take the infants away from the mother, feed them by bottle with breast milk or formula in exactly the same way and never tell the parents or HCPs which way they were fed - I can't see any parents signing up to a study like that somehow!

Primafacie thanks for the advice, but I tried that. I was working really well. Until page 12, and it became clear that the use wasn't going to stop.

I think the health benefit message has been pushed sufficiently and it's time that those who are pro-bf focused their efforts on ensuring more support for women who want to breastfeed rather than browbeating the minority who don't or can't. Are there really any women out there anymore who still ff because they are stuck in a 1950s time warp and think that it's 'better'?

Who is 'browbeating' women who FF? Explaining the benefits (although I hate that term!) of breastfeeding is stating facts, it is not 'browbeating'. If it had been 'pushed' (why is it pushing, are formula companies 'pushing' their products too?) then we wouldn't still have people saying it makes no difference or even some peopel who think formula is superior to breastmilk. Yes, there are people who think that, some of them are even health professionals.

I have FF and never felt one bit of guilt or like I wasn't doing the best I could for my child. I certainly never felt like I was 'browbeaten'. I wanted to BF, it didn't work out and although now I know I could have actually breastfed, I did the best I could with the information I had at the time and who can do any better than that?

However, you are right more support is needed and hopefully that is something that will happen.

Breastmilk is the best food for a baby, how can anyone argue with that, when a mothers body makes it especially for that baby . The milk changes according to the babies needs, and provides antibodies, and protection against certain illnesses.

Aside from the nutritional benefits, a breastfeed provides a baby with security, comfort and reassurance..................a plastic bottle of 'milk' which is expected to be gulped down by a newborn in a few minutes could never compare. It's a totally different experience for an infant.

Breastfeeding is so much more than a 'feeding choice', if you can't understand that, then you have missed the point entirely.

By referring to 'browbeating', midori, I'm talking about people like the OP who feel that the anti-formula messages out there are implying that she's a bad mother or has somehow made a socially inferior choice in how she's feeding her baby.

Lots of FF-ers do feel that way although that's great if it never affected you. I felt browbeaten personally in my experiences of HCPs pressurizing me to prioritize bf over everything else in the aftermath of a difficult birth and also felt socially pressured when feeding DS with a bottle out and about. I didn't feel comfortable bf-ing in public either though (before I gave it up) so there is no easy answer.

Fluffy.... No one is arguing with that at all!

What people get pissed about is the assumption that they are ignorant fools who don't know the facts and have it shoved down our throats again and again by the all the pro bf lobby.

It is just another thing to beat women up with for their choices. There is so much pressure that it can be detrimental to womens mental health but people are
More concerned by women breastlfeeding that they overlook other things such as anxiety, tongue tie, not being able to produce enough milk etc.' The fact that some Women can't bf is relevant because even when they have made Peace with their decision or 'their lot' in the infant feeding stakes they are STILL reminded of it everytime they buy the formula as it is essentially telling them

'you're doing the wrong thing nah nah nah nah.'

It's all stats stats stats
What about people, what about mental health? What about relationships between baby and mother?

Believe me some
Mothers may get an amazing bond through bf, some
Mothers may get distressed whenever their baby is coming up for a feed. I gave up bf when I tried I get her latched on and it took me nearly 2.5 hours for a 7 minute feed and she was not getting enough at all. I get panic attacks and was scared I would get one at every feed. I was scared I would get pnd and I was scared I might shake my baby. So I quit for all of us. I hate being referred to as an 'artificial feeder' it's fucking insulting. I am a mother feeding my baby the best way I can.

I was sobbing all the way through. I'm still reminded of this even by the formula that saved my sanity.

Breastmilk is the best food for a baby, how can anyone argue with that, when a mothers body makes it especially for that baby confused.

Except that the hard evidence doesn't support it.....

Aside from the nutritional benefits, a breastfeed provides a baby with security, comfort and reassurance

In the US this is appeal to emotional triggers is rapidly becoming the falback position of the pro BF crowd as the evidence continues to show little physical difference between BF and FF, and the IQ and child health benefit claims are increasingly debunked. There is, of course, absolutely no believable evidence of this assertion either, but its harder to prove or disprove.

I also think its rude to imply as a
Ff I can't support or comfort my baby or make her feel protected.

It's rude to give me bf 'stats and benefits' as of I must be ignorant to everything on the subject.

I find the term 'artificial feeder' upsetting and offensive

kayano, there is no reason for you to be offended whatsoever. There is no reason for you to feel anything other than you have done what is best for your baby in your circumstances and you should be proud of that.

However, as Whatme has shown above, some people still do argue with the fact that breastmilk is the best food for a baby.

What a surprise that whatmeworry has turned up desperate to dispute that Breast milk is best... You really must have a massive, insecure chip on your shoulder. The way you desperately try to dispute that breastmilk is far superior to formula is actually very weird.

Shagmund, I hear you but on MN saying breastfeeding is best and should be promoted as the ideal is unbearable for many who don't want to know so they drag their massive shoulder chips in to shout pro-breast promoters down.

Breastmilk IS best and formla milk is and always will be the lesser option

But I do feel offended by 'breastfeeding gives your baby reassurance.'

Wtf does such a fucking stupid phrase even mean if not designed to imply that as a Ffer I can not reassure my baby?

'Bf gives a baby comfort'

so do I with my super bottle. So does a thumb, so does a snuggle on the sofa

It's throwaway phrases like that and their sly and cruel undertones that annoy upset and offend

Paperback can you not see that by overly promoting the ideal that you will get thousands of women who fall short, feel like failures and get distressed or depressed?

Women need support in their ability to make their own choices not bashed around by some 'ideal'

It's not always ideal for everyone and parenthood and feeding is not one size fits all

Well,breastfeeding does give a baby comfort and reassurance. That's not, of course, to say there aren't other ways to give a baby those things and there's no need to feel there's any undertone meant or implied.

Breastfeeding is the best way to feed a baby, there's no getting away from that. However, how you feed your baby doesn't make you a good or bad Mother, it's one tiny aspect of parenting and formula is a perfectly acceptable substitute when women can't or don't want to breastfeed. The baby is still getting fed and presumably loved, cuddled and cared for in every other way.

I BF DD, but I am 'guilty' of MNing on my phone while feeding her sometimes, or eating my lunch, or even doing the supermarket shop with her in a sling, so we all do things that are less than ideal. It's what we do overall that makes us a good parent, not one or two things.

When my first DC was born a midwife asked if i would fill in a form with them for data collection. I agreed, she filled it in for me. when we go to the section about infant feeding I explained that i couldnt BF due to meds. She ticked BF at birth and ticked BF when leaving the hospital anyway! She said, "well you would have if you could so whats the difference" I replied that actually no i wouldnt have. "oh well" and went on her merry way....

No idea what the data was used for after that, but i lost my faith in the stats somewhat then tbh.

But it's still a bloody pointless sentence that pro bf spout in the bf/ff debate

'bf gives a baby comfort and reassurance.'

I could say

'ff gives my baby comfort and reassurance.'

Because it does. Of COURSE using in the context of arguing for bf implies it is not the case in ff. it's redundant and needless. My niece is comforted by her blanket and thumb. So what?

There is a paragraph in the WHO International Code of marketing for breast-milk substitutes that says that any materials (leaflets etc.) discussing the use of forumla should raise the issue of the social and financial costs of using formula.
here.

I think HiPP are covering themselves and just trying to conform to the code.

Unfortunately, I'm still not sure what the social implications are.