Aibu? to be pissed off at this: "The cost and social implications of using an infant milk should be considered when deciding how to feed your baby."

[Selyna]

WTF do Hipp mean by social implications?

Both methods of feeding a baby are acceptable so fuck off with the whole acting like ff is poison! my dd is perfectly fine but i hate this constant making me feel like a failure because i failed to bf although i tried so so hard!

But if one is healthier then surely by definition the other is unhealthier. So were only divided on which is the baseline. You say bf is "healthier" I say ff is "riskier"

"I said right at the start of this thread that ff is not harmful in developed countries"

How does the higher incidence of hospital admissions and gp appointments among formula fed babies relate to the statement that formula is 'not harmful'? Sometimes babies ARE harmed by not having breast milk.

Jeeze - I don't understand people's thinking on this. How can people agree with the statement that breastfeeding has benefits (as almost everyone does) and yet those same people assume that these benefits never manifest themselves in an actual reduction in illness in populations?

I wouldn't argue with your list of social implications - it just seems a weird term to use and I put down what it implies to me.

Social implications-
1Baby can be comforted and calmed by quick feed,
2Affects mother and father relationship,
3Can be an intense relationship between mum and baby, with ups and downs,
4Hormones affect mood and energy levels,
5Not all mums are happy feeding in public, so worry about going out,
6Mum alone has responsibility for feeding unless baby accepts expressed milk,
7Peer group may not approve/support, undermining confidence,
8Weaning can be difficult.

I would agree that 4 and 5 and 7 are valid but think the others could refer to either bf or ff so irrelevant on packet of ffeed. Unless they are advocating use of wet nurse.
Perhaps social implications could mean that it is harder for a mother to return to work, which, if everyone bf and didn't return to work would have social implications. Though that probably applies to ff too.

I don't even know what Hipp is but feel suspicious about the info and the way it is written.

According to my GP, his work is much less since BF became popular again!!!!

Breastfeeding is the standard, the 'norm' against which ff needs to be measured.

Because that's how things are done in health research. We take the physiological norm as the base line of normality (eg not smoking, breastfeeding, vaginal birth etc) and we measure the efficacy of the intervention (smoking, ff, c/s) against it.

i have heard some rather intelligent people repeat notions encouraged by formula advertising.

Advertising works.
that's why they pay millions for it.

Jeeze - I don't understand people's thinking on this. How can people agree with the statement that breastfeeding has benefits (as almost everyone does) and yet those same people assume that these benefits never manifest themselves in an actual reduction in illness in populations?

Shaggy dear, I think the pendulum is swinging back again to rational data driven behaviour, not your belief driven hectoring...I note even the NCT is now going to stop banging the Breast is Best drum ( read this in the Torygraph )...I quote some bits of it:

As a first step it is to drop its "evangelical" position on breast feeding, moving from a stance of "promoting" it to one of "protecting" the rights of women who decide to do it.

The shift, which follows a two-year review of the charity's work, forms part of its new "20/20 strategy", a programme to reach all 20 million parents in the UK by 2020, regardless of their background.

"We need to get the message out that the NCT is for everyone, not just for 'posh' parents as some people assume," said Anne Fox, NCT head of corporate communications.

The NCT, formed in 1956, has 100,000 members, making it the biggest parenting charity in the UK. It provided antenatal classes for about 90,000 couples last year, 16 per cent of them free through the NHS.

An analysis of parents signing up to paid-for sessions, which cost about £200, revealed that 86 per cent had a degree and 95 per cent were white"

and...

"We are very happy to put our hands up and say that over the years we have perhaps been evangelical about breastfeeding because at that time, it was needed," said Mrs Fox. "Now we don't believe that that is the right approach.

and....

Mrs Fox said that the "breast is best" public health message was now well established: "It is not a term we would use but it is something that is recognised.

"It is not a term we would use".....the world is indeed turning. I think this one's day is done if even the NCT is distancing itself now.

I think everything these days is sooo regulated that everything we do comes with a health warning, just to cover everyone's back doncha know!

I think everything in life goes in and out of fashion, FF will be promoted soon as the best as mothers can't be trusted to lead a model life and breastmilk will be considered "contaminated"!! Stranger things have happened.

From a personal point of view I breastfed 4 DC until they wanted to stop back in the day when BF was considered weird. I think I did it because in my family BF was considered the norm, my sisters BF too. I found it easy and obviously cheap but never considered FF and did not buy any bottles for just in case.

I can remember being on the ward and the nurses drawing the curtains round when I was feeding, and sending a nurse to see how I did it!!

However I drank and smoked throughout, we didn't know any better in those days. Thankfully all my DC have grown into hale and hearty adults... lucky.

What - you interpret the NCT's abandonment of the 'breast is best' 'strapline' as meaning, what? That they no longer support the view that evidence suggests breastfeeding is best for babies?

Seriously, you're bonkers if that's how you've interpreted that very crap and badly written article.

What it actually means is that they are shifting their focus more onto supporting than promoting breastfeeding, but to be honest, they haven't done much promotion of breastfeeding anyway. Most of their money is spent training breastfeeding counsellors and running the breastfeeding line. They will continue to focus on that.

I think the real issue is with the NCT that their market for antenatal classes (which funds a good part of their other activities) has been seriously compromised by the recession and they know they need to win government contracts to deliver antenatal education within the NHS and through Children's Centres to survive. In order to make themselves more appealing they're trying to reach out clumsily to 'the masses' (who are less likely to initiate breastfeeding anyway) by winding down some of their breastfeeding promotion activities.

"I think the pendulum is swinging back again to rational data driven behaviour"

But all good quality evidence supports the belief that breastfeeding reduces ill health among babies to a significant degree, even in developed countries.

Seriously What - why do you think EVERY SINGLE reputable medical organisation in the UK promotes the view that breastfeeding reduces mortality and morbidity in populations, if there is no good evidence to support this view?

Every single comment I've made on this thread about the risks associated with ff comes from mainstream health sites like PatientUK and NHS Direct. How can you still keep insisting that I'm out on a limb here?

"I think everything in life goes in and out of fashion, FF will be promoted soon as the best as mothers can't be trusted to lead a model life and breastmilk will be considered "contaminated"!! Stranger things have happened."

What, like breathing will be out of fashion? Or walking? Or sex? In favour of ventilators, wheelchairs and IVF?

Breastfeeding is a normal physiological function and as yet - like other physiological functions, when it's working properly (as it usually does if nobody does anything to fuck it up) nothing humans have invented is ever likely to trump it for functionality, safety and good design.

Why does everyone get in such a fucking flap about what other people are doing.

If I want to decide how I want to feed my baby I will do all my research.

I had to ff as it turned out for my mental health.

I hate that one the decision has been made and I'm at peace with my bottle and baby is much happier that I am STILL accosted by no ff support at all as hcps often actually speak about it.

Every formula advert is about BF being optimal and every leaflet makes
Me feel like shit.

Why can't they say for information on bf and ff .... Go here

It's very much an individual decision with a lot of factors other that what people 'decide' and the pressure to be natural and bf is so strong when women are pregnant and have babies that if they can't do it for some reason they actually feel like failures.

I honestly think there is so much negativity surrounding ff that it can actually be detrimental to a woman's (mine for example) mental health.

I sobbed all the time, felt a failure, was hysterical, sobbed when my baby had a cold because I had obviously caused it...
Now I find it was the best thing that happened to me but all this pressure to bf is frickin awful. We need BALANCE.

Here are two options, here is the research... Do what's best for you

Rather than here are two options. We will only support you in one of these options. It is what natural mothers do. 'oh you have picked artificial feedin have you?' wrong choice

I also find that the
Most militant BF I know who are all 'guidelines guideline guidelines...'

Are also more likely themselves to break the co-sleeping guidelines

(just a random observation of mine)

About NCT. NCT still believes very firmly in the value of breastfeeding - it is an evidence-based organisation and it knows that the evidence is in favour of bf.

The change in strategy is because it knows that sometimes it is perceived as being overzealous about bf and making women who ff feel bad. It is very clear now that it wants not to be judgemental but to support women in the choices that they make. It will of course continue to support women through its bf counsellors and baby cafes. The point is it's about being supportive, not judgemental.

Well that's much better

Go NCT!

TBJ, I've given a lot of thought to your post (don't want you to think I just ignored it). The term was was used by me to convey an attitude some people have, that their way is the only way, their refusal to believe that not everyone can do as they say, no empathy for those people who fall short of their ideal, that it is perfectly fine to employ censorship to control the images put out by the media, to bully and harass other people into conforming by making them feel they are bad parents if they don't. I am not saying they are the same as actual Nazi's (it was a figure of speech), only that they have an attitude which wouldn't be out of place in a fascist society.

It is not an attempt to diminish the experiences of those who suffered during the war - why would I do that?

I found the lack of support for bf'ing Mums shocking. I didn't have a painfree feed for 5 months with my DD (due to thrush, staph infection, and 3 helpings of mastitis................OUCHY.)

All professionals I saw (5 different GPs, 2 health visitors, breast feeding counsellor) told me to give up. I think they wanted to get rid of me.

It turned out that the GPs had no knowledge of breastfeeding problems. One told me that it was because they didn't get Govt funding for breastfeeding support, as it's not 'medical', and you can always give up and give a baby a bottle!!!!!.....................yeah, very supportive.

I think it's disgusting that we are told 'breast is best', and of course it is 100%, but we are given no help and support after the midwife has discharged us, very wrong.

Anyway I am pleased to say I am still b'fing now 16 months on, and glad I didn't give up, as the benefits have made it very worthwhile.

I really wish Mums could get more support when trying to Bf, something really needs to change.

I don't think the NCT has ever been judgemental of ff as an organisation.

That's why I think the particular press release was such a lousy and obvious way of trying to ingratiate themselves with Joe Public (who is more likely to ff than the NCT's traditional client base).

Karma - I have yet to meet a single bf advocate who has any bf education at all who believes that everyone can and should breastfeed, and should do so no matter what the emotional cost. It's just one of those accusations people like to fling at bf advocates to try to strengthen their own position.

Kayano - which particular guidelines are you referring to on co-sleeping? Most women who bf that I know are aware of the risks of co-sleeping and do all they can to minimise these risks for their baby.

Like the guideline of 'don't do it?'

Well By the argument of most
Women are aware
Of
The risks of co sleeping so try to minimise the risk

I could also say I am aware of the risks of ff and so do what I can to minimise it (ie prepare it properly)

This debate always works my nerves. The research is pretty clear that breastfeeding has health benefits but they are negligible to small on almost every count, and most of the data lacks rigour.

Women should do what they want and what makes sense for them after considering the options.

For those who stress it is the natural state of being - well yes but so is being pregnant most of our fertile years. No one seems to complain that women on birth control are going against nature and putting their health at risk. Because the benefits outweigh the risks.

Well said chandellina

The research is pretty clear that breastfeeding has health benefits but they are negligible to small on almost every count, and most of the data lacks rigour.

What a load of old twaddle.

Kayano - can you be more specific? As far as I'm aware NO guideline tells mothers 'don't co-sleep'.

Chandelina - sorry but you are talking out your arse.

If the RCM and the NHS and the RCPCH support the view that bf has 'significant health benefits' for mothers and babies, based on a thorough review by experts of years worth of evidence, then that's good enough for me.

Ironically the same people who insist that there is no convincing evidence in support of bf benefits, appear to assume that there is a mass of good quality research showing that giving a baby processed cows milk instead of human milk as its sole food during its period of fastest growth, has no implications for health in the short,medium or long term. Well hello people - that evidence doesn't exist! That's perhaps why the almost wholesale switch to formula feeding in the west has been called the 'biggest uncontrolled experiment in the history of human nutrition'......

Kayano - do you really give chandelina's view on the benefits of bf more weight than the view of the Royal Academy of Paediatrics?

Why?

Because she's saying something that makes you feel better about your feeding choices?

Shagmund, take a look at some of the studies cited by those and other organisations - I have.

The time bomb of western diets now exploding in the form of diabetes and obesity is from the extreme amount of sugar and processed food in our diets. I am far more concerned about the health risks of parents giving children juice as their main drink than I am about formula.