To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

*Ok. One last time.

The Catholic church contributes to catholic schools. So catholic children should have priority entry. They should have a greater right to a place at this particular state school than another, non Catholic child who lives next door to it? Do you all think that is right?o*

Yes Seeker I agree with that statement, I hope that this has eased your exasperation. Is there another faith you can move on to now???

The only state primary schools that can use discriminatory admissions criteria are faith schools. They are funded by the tax payer, but not open to all tax payer. How is that right?

Seeker this is where you dont make sense. My taxes pay towards lots of things I will never access and would not be open to me.

So would you be happy for special catholic wards in hospitals?

Grammar schools discriminate against pupils whose parents cannot afford tutoring and children who are not academic. So it is not just faith schools being selective.

I did saystqte primary schools.

As long as there were special Muslim wards, C of E wards etc etc - getting bored with this now.

Seeker - shall we close down all faith schools? Will that make you happy?

Can we then close down Grammar schools too seeing as my child will never make the grade.

So so bored with this - why am I replying. People cherry picking what they will and won't acknowledge in answers.

Let's make everything non-selective and I will insist the Grammar school takes my child and not yours or anyone else who might be more entitled to it. Happy?

State funding applies to all kinds of things I will never meet the criteria for. Does that mean it shoukdn't be there.

Anyway, I have said all I am going to say on the subject. There are those here who do not want to listen and will always repeat themselves asking the sane fricking question again and again claiming it's not bring answered. READ THE BLOODY ANSWERS WHY DON'T YOU?????

Of course you are not interested in the answers because they don't meet your views.

Fucking irritating this thread is.

Go to church if you think my child is getting something your child is not.

But I seriously doubt he is getting anything other kids in the State sector do not. He is getting a State education because I cannot afford anything else. He is getting this in a Catholic school (as a non- Catholic).

I could not give a shit how his school is funded as long as he is cared for well.

Leaving this thread now and hoping the anti-Catholics can find a different faith or something else to whinge about

"As long as there were special Muslim wards, C of E wards etc etc"

Really? Are you serious? How would you pick which faiths got wards of their own?

Re selectivity in primaries, yes of course there will always have to be a criteria of some sort. Catchment is probably the least worst 'general' criteria and most environmentally friendly imo, although of course you get into paying for postcodes then. But in theory everyone has a chance of moving house, whereas being born into a certain faith isn't something that any child has control over. And it's certainly not reasonable to expect people to convert faiths (or pretend to acquire one) just to have a chance of getting into a school ffs.

So would you be happy for special catholic wards in hospitals?

That is a completely different situation. How do you link the two?

I have a question for all those who have an issue with faith schools - Seeker particularly.
If you have such a strong dislike of them and dont think they add value to a childs education, and you wouldnt send your child there, then why do you care what they do.

Also, if they do add little to education, then why even in deprived areas, are their results so much better.

snappysnappy - PLEASE read this article - it covers your questions most eloquently (and will save me the bother):

Guardian - Should we allow faith schools?

From this Guardian article]]

"It is well-known that the average proportion of deprived pupils in faith schools is lower than it is for all schools in England. However, it has not until now been clear whether this is a facet of the areas they serve. Our analysis shows for the first time the extent to which faith and non-faith schools reflect ? or fail to reflect ? the proportion of poor pupils in their area.

The vast majority of Catholic primary and secondary schools fail to mirror the proportion of poor pupils living in their community, the data reveals. The Catholic church has fought successful battles to retain control of admissions to its schools."

The reason that the hospital example is pertinent is that with the way things are going, it's not inconceivable that the NHS will start to take handouts from faith groups in exchange for the faith groups having some say in what happens in our NHS hospitals.

If you think that is preposterous just look at what has happened / is happening with schools, also a state-funded service, which should be (in theory) equally accessible to all British citizens, but in fact are not.

I think the point that really needs addressing is why faith schools are so popular amongst parents and what do they provide that mainstream schools don't?

I went to two mainstream comprehensive schools and they were shite. I was bullied, the other kids didn't want to learn, low level chronic misbehaviour, lack of care from teachers and pupils towards one another, no ethos, no sense of a common goal and no pride. I left school with inadequate qualifications and have never achieved what I'm clearly capable of. I look at the Catholic schools that my kids attend and they're both so different from the picture I've painted of my own education. They do care and they also deliver a good education. One of them is in a very working class area, the other is in a better area. ds1 goes to school with people of all ethnic backgrounds and religions and both are having positive experiences and are happy. Part of this is due to the faith aspect of the schools and ds1 (13) has chosen to be confirmed as a Catholic (of his own accord).

Faith schools are popular and parents like them.

Why do poor children do so badly in school and why do people want to avoid/exclude them?

hiddenhome - it isn't as simple as that. Have you read those Guardian articles? (they aren't long, I promise)

Should we allow faith schools?

and this one

Church schools shun poorest pupils

Yes, I know Church schools have lower levels of the poorest pupils. Is this because those pupils are less likely to go to church or because of behaviour issues?

Two pupils have been expelled from ds1's Secondary School since he started. Both were from poorer backgrounds with family breakdown issues. Both were showing bad behaviour and bullying towards other pupils. The school expels pupils for this behaviour and also for smoking. They're very strict. Was their behaviour because they were from poorer backgrounds, or just random events. Is there a coincidence or is this to be expected?

Thankfully you summarised the article but it doesnt answer my questions - in that if it doesnt affect you and really doesnt adversely affect society, what is your issue.

You are crushingly naive if you think that equal education would ensure that all children get the same chances - its just more about the home life!

Bamboo - I am sorry but the hospital correlation means nothing to me. Its completely different and involves the state ceeding running of hospitals to religious or other private institutions. Thats a whole different days work.

Re education and the Guardian article;
The premise is that they select on faith and thats not fair because people who enrol their children in these schools tend to be better off.
Have you looked at a correlation between generally having faith and deprivation, is there a similar link.

Yes state schools would do much better if there were more engaged parents and their children involved. So why dont the parents in state schools get more involved? They are not all seriously deprived so whats their excuse?

Bamboo - there are plenty of state schools to send your children to so why not concentrate on them instead of bashing those people of faith who want their child to go to a religious school

I don't have any issues with their selection processes HouseOfBamboo. That might sound harsh, but I'm determined that my kids will receive a better education than I did. I'm Catholic, but wasn't allowed to go to the Catholic Secondary school because my mother was a rabid atheist. Thanks to her, I suffered all through school. There was a nice Catholic secondary down the road from my school.

My kids behave themselves and 'fit in' at school. If other kids aren't able to do that then that's not my problem. It's sad for them, but I'm not interested. History not repeating itself is all I care about.

I'd also like to add that I'm from a poorer background myself. I was brought up in care and my lone parent mother didn't work.

snappysnappy and hiddenhome - are you seriously implying that 'poor people' behave badly because they aren't religious enough?

I actually pulled ds1 out of a 'good' Secondary school with a fairly middle class population. ds2 was pulled out of an 'outstanding' Primary with a middle class population.

Equal education doesn't result in equality for all children, because, as snappy has rightly pointed out, education comes from the home first and foremost.

No, I'm saying that poorer children are less likely to go to church and therefore don't meet the criteria to enter church schools.