To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

Not at all, the taxpayer funds the teaching of the curriculum, faith organizations fund the rest and some provide the buildings, saving the tax payer money.

"Not at all, the taxpayer funds the teaching of the curriculum, faith organizations fund the rest and some provide the buildings, saving the tax payer money."

So if this is such a great system, would you be happy if all the schools in the country were run by a faith group, 90% funded by the tax payer? Of course you couldn't discriminate against which faiths were allowed to set up schools, so you take pot luck as to which are available in your area. And where do you stop? The Jehovah's Witnesses, or maybe a Billy Graham school? Those American evangelists have plenty of cash. So why not, as long as they have the funds and the will to do it? Oh wait, isn't that what the new Free School system's all about

It could be better if all parents were given a voucher for education and schools could compete for those funds. Then if people choose faith based education none would have grounds for a complaint.

Bamboo, if I was (or at any time in the future became) unhappy with the system of education I would campaign for change.

Dione - indeed.

btw why do you keep asking the same question - it's starting to sound a bit like 'ha ha, what are you going to do about it' if you don't mind me saying so.

Novack - well that would be an interesting experiment, although as the churches have access to historic funding and property, possibly not a very fair one. Would the voucher system mean that faith schools had to accept whoever wanted to use their voucher there? How would they deal with admissions if they were oversubscribed? If they are just going to use religious discrimination then maybe not much will change, assuming that overall state funding won't have changed.

I've not noticed anyone answer her yet.

My activities are mainly confined to MN, the rest is my business

So are there any answers to my questions? Or is all argument confined to 'what are you gonna do about it'?

There is no "ha ha" intended in my posts.

You answered my question. I did not ask you again.

My last post was a reply to your question at 21:29.
I believe in challenging and trying to change things that you are unhappy with, which is why I came onto this thread.

Every day I give thanks that I am alive in this country in this time. Our liberties were not gifted us. They were hard won by the campaigners of the past. But the work goes on, it will never stop and we must be vigilant that we do not lose our rights and in our efforts to progress.

We each have a voice. We have access to information. I find it sad when people, instead of using their voices to effect change, use them to criticize others who put their time and effort into investing in what they believe in.

Don't know whether OP is being unreasonable. I'm very much in agreement, but then I'm another ex-Catholic chewing on sour Catholic grapes so it's hard to be objective.

However, can we just clarify something regarding VA faith schools and funding:

The church provides up to 10% of the capital costs only; the state provides 90%+ of capital costs and 100% of the running costs. The church's contribution is tiny. And yet these schools are allowed to discriminate with these extraordinary admission policies. It may not be a big deal in reasonably socially stable areas or where pressure for school places is light, but in areas of very high social deprivation, these policies serve one purpose only, and that's to keep out all the troublesome/disconnected/disengaged families - very few of whom will have made it into their local Catholic or C of E church every week for 6 months before application to sign the register.

But why does it matter if the catholic school does not want to allow troublesome/disconnected/disengaged families - very few of whom will have made it into their local Catholic or C of E church every week for 6 months before application to sign the register. in.

These families had the opportunity but did not use it. There will still be a state school safety net provided for them so they are not in hardship.

op is this a thread about my thread? About my anger as a Catholic, at the letter sent to Catholic schools?

everyone has their own belief
many christians swear, have sex before marriage: islam is a good religion but many pull the koran apart to suit themselves ad gine islam a bad name etc

Do what you feel is right and let others be hypocrites- if that's what you believe they are

in fact my neighbour did the whole catholic thing just to get her son into christs school

Our school prides itself on taking children who have struggled elsewhere and who may well be from "chaotic and disconnected families". These children are not Catholic and their families are not churchgoers. The last child they took had been excluded from three previous schools. Our school took her and kept her - she is now being supported in the Catholic secondary school.
So not all Catholic schools operate on the basis of "only Catholic".

"The church provides up to 10% of the capital costs only; the state provides 90%+ of capital costs and 100% of the running costs. The church's contribution is tiny."

Just in case anyone missed this.

Sorry not been on MN and I can't believe this thraed is still going.

thatisall - Sorry I don't know if I saw your thread? I don't think so. This thread was after reading some of the comments on the thread about the actholic church being homophobic and especially some of the responses in the thread about the homophobia of the catholic church being down to a few bad men (sorry thats what I remember - sorry if its wrong).

But in the comments section, some people were talking about catholicism as being a tolerant faith and the catholic church being a tolerant and fair institution. And talking about things like homophobia as if only a very few people in the catholic church had any homophobic views.

It did make me angry, hence the badly phrased OP which I have already said on this thread. But I felt the comments totally misrepresented the catholic church to non catholics. It felt like people just wanted to pretend that the catholic church was something it wasn't.

No one has missed the fact that the government meets the education costs. But if you don't like catholic schools the government allows you to set up a free school based on any superstition you like provided there are enough of you in one area.

A policy that I also don't agree with.

I said that further up the thread seeker and have also said again and again that my son's Catholic school takes on a good proportion of non-Catholic children.

I haven't missed the 10% fact - I mentioned it previously. Did you miss it as you are continuing to go on about this?

I accept your point that some schools are very selective. Grammar schools for example select on the basis of ability and many parents hothouse their children to get a place. My son is not likely to ever get a place due to his special needs. Does this mean I should resent the state funding which goes into those schools? No - it doesn't despite the fact that even if my son did NOT have special needs I could not afford the tutoring it takes to get him through the exams and give him a level playing field with all the other children.

If we are going to resent selection then let's make ALL schools non-selective on any level - all faith schools go, all grammars and any other selective establishment.

My son is not Catholic, he is in a Catholic school with many other non-Catholic children so your argument that Catholic schools are excluding non Catholic children does not apply in my area.

As I said several times up thread (in case you missed it) I do not necessarily disagree with what you are saying. I think it should be enough to say that you like the Christian/other ethos of a faith based school to be considered for a place simply because 90% of the funding comes from the State.

Dione - I'm sorry if I have misunderstood you. It seemed as if you were repeatedly asking questions about what I and others were doing about it (complaining to LEA, campaigning etc) rather than engaging in the actual discussion of the rights and wrongs of faith schools. Which came across as a bit antagonistic, since you clearly agree with very little of what I have said and appeared to be shouting 'from the other side of the fence'. Again, I'm sorry if I have misunderstood your intention.

Re your comment
"We each have a voice. We have access to information. I find it sad when people, instead of using their voices to effect change, use them to criticize others who put their time and effort into investing in what they believe in."

I don't think anyone has criticised you personally, I am criticising the unfair system. I'm aware that lots of people put time and effort into schools, though that's a separate issue. I even do a fair bit of voluntary work at my DCs school myself. And I'm an atheist!

Novack:

"But why does it matter if the catholic school does not want to allow troublesome/disconnected/disengaged families - very few of whom will have made it into their local Catholic or C of E church every week for 6 months before application to sign the register.

These families had the opportunity but did not use it. There will still be a state school safety net provided for them so they are not in hardship."

1. They only had the opportunity if they were Catholic. Otherwise they were at the back of the queue and unlikely to get a place in densely populated areas

1. You ask what does it matter? You have two schools side by side in an area of high social deprivation. One school (Voluntary Aided) only takes those children from families that are organised enough to go to church every week and clued up enough to sign the register. The other (Community) takes everyone else. What effect do you think the VA school policy has on the Community school?

Re non-Catholic intake at Catholic schools, well whether this is 'commendable' depends on the admissions policy of the individual school.

If the school is truly inclusive and doesn't put Catholics at the front of the queue, then absolutely fair enough.

If they only admit non-Catholics if there aren't enough Catholics to fill the places (don't forget schools get government funding on a 'per pupil' basis, so they can't afford small class sizes), then not really very commendable, I'm afraid.

Interestingly, unlike state funded voluntary aided Catholic schools, Independent Catholic schools tend to be very inclusive indeed. You can be any religion you like as long as you can pay the fees every term.

From 'Faith Schools' in Wikipedia (yes I know, but read the Guardian article):

"Issues about faith schools in the UK

An analysis of 2010 English school data by The Guardian (Church schools shun poorest pupils) found that state faith schools were not taking a fair share of the poorest pupils in their local areas, as indicated by free school meal entitlement. Not only was this so at the overall national level, but also in the postcode areas nearby the schools. This suggested selection by religion in England was leading to selection of children from more well-off families."

Another Guardian article about the spread of faith schools