To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

Priority admission is always given to a particular group, whether that group is religious or simply rich enough to buy a house in the right area.

I want my children to be educated in a religious school. You clearly don't want a religious education for your children. So having faith schools and secular schools makes sense, no?

Apologies because somewhere up thread I was asked one or two questions which I missed last night due to being at Mass. The Mass was for those of us who have followed a "Journey in Faith" programme into the Catholic church.
I was thinking about this thread quite a bit during the Mass and about identifying as Catholic and it occurred to me that my faith is a journey. For me this journey has started with the Catholic church despite my misgivings about many issues. I may remain in the Catholic church or my faith journey might take me on a different path. I just don't know at the moment where it will lead me. I like the Eucharist within the Catholic church and it feels very real to me . I cannot at the moment think it would feel "as real" anywhere else (although that is not to say other faiths or paths are any less "real").
At the moment this is the nearest I can get to my reasons for joining the Catholic church ( I became Catholic at Easter).

So for those who asked me, sorry I didn't reply last night - hope my response gives you some idea of where I am with it

That would certainly be an improvement!

I have said that provision of funds and buildings means that faiths are given a say in these schools. This is simply fact.

I don't think it's up to me to justify decisions made by LEAs.

How does your LEA justify it?

I think you have, but have chosen not to take the same view as those that have answered you. That's fine, of course. You are quite welcome to your own opinion, but you must understand that an answer does not have to convince you in order to qualify as an answer. You asked what we thought. Some of us told you. It was what we think. That is not the same as what you think.

There are lots of selection criteria around schools, faith is only 1.

I want my children to go to a faith school and I believe that my non religious neighbour should be able to send their child to an equally good state school.

That is possible for both of us because of where we live - 2 miles away that is not the case so thats another way of selecting.

I cant understand the attitude of ' I dont want it so no one else can have it'

I don't think you will get a straight answer seeker. As it happens I would be much happier if all schools took from the area whether the school is Catholic (or any other faith) based or not.

My DS's school takes lots of children who are not Catholic bit priority is still given to those who are Catholic.

Personally I think it should be enough for a family to say " we like the Christian ethos of the school" to qualify for admission. Or to say " religion is a load of rubbish" and choose a different school.

Certainly that would stop all the fakery and buying into a faith just to secure a place at x, y or z school which has good results.

We have little of that in DS's Catholic school because it prides itself on SEN provision so results are less good but pastoral care (which as a parent of a child with ASD I really value) is outstanding.

Ok. One last time.

The Catholic church contributes to catholic schools. So catholic children should have priority entry. They should have a greater right to a place at this particular state school than another, non Catholic child who lives next door to it? Do you all think that is right?o

I do, yes. But I speak for myself and not for anyone else, Catholic or otherwise.

But the non catholic child can go the school, he is not prohibited.

Oh, though I do support the priority of looked after children of any or no faith, actually.

Yes. BUT only because of the first part- because the Catholic church contributes.

Yes seeker. I'll stand up to that one. I think it is right.
Those catholic schools are doing very well because the families who send their children there actually care about the school and are not there just because they lived next door.

I also believe state schools can achieve this standard if more people actually cared about them instead of them being a default choice. The difference is clear even in state schools people care about vs the ones which well, could do better.

Till that happens, it is not a level playing field.

No seeker - as I said in my last post I would be much happier if all it took was for a family to say " we like the Christian ethos of the school". After all 90% of the funding comes from the State.

My DS is not yet Catholic but is in a Catholic school. I was not Catholic or even a church goer when he started.

As a bit of an aside (though it's relevant) - why do the Catholic and CofE churches own so much property? Where did the money come from? Genuine question.

I think some of the buildings are very old or are built from having sold land. As far as I remember it was expected people would give a proportion of their income to the church at one time.

Lots of church owned land and buildings exist - not just Catholic but C of E etc.

Am a bit vague about the history of it all.

Ooh, not sure. Possibly a bit of wealth breeding wealth. And like cod says, donations - people give money/land/their own skills and labour to build a church/temple/mosque, and then the religion as a whole owns it, I suppose.

"But the non catholic child can go the school, he is not prohibited."

1. He might well be prohibited if there are enough Catholic* children in front of him in the queue.

2. A Catholic education will almost certainly not be top of his parents wish list. A good education and a choice of suitable schools nearby probably will be. The fact that the Catholic school has taken away LEA resources from non-faith schools means that choice will be decreased for non-Catholics in that area.

• This would apply to C of E and other faith schools as well, of course. People of the 'wrong' religion or no religion will be discriminated against in that case.

But has the faith school taken away resources? If it weren't a faith school it would require even more money from the LEA, as it would no longer have the money that comes from the religion whose school it is.

And to go back to the NHS example, do people think it would be fair if there were 'faith hospitals'? Where the church / mosque owns the buildings and maybe subsidises them a bit, but the NHS foots 90% of all the other bills? And where admissions are based on faith first of all, but if they are feeling generous (or aren't already full of people of the right faith) then they might be kind enough to let a few heathens in?

Do you think it would be fair for the NHS to say to the other people in the area - sorry about the cuts and having to shut down your local surgery, only we've spent our budget on that faith hospital? But don't worry, it's a really nice hospital and people are really kind there, because they're religious. Shame you can't get into it and all that, but you could always convert

Bamboo, have you approached your LEA in regards to your beliefs about the damaging impact of faith schools? What was their response?

What you are describing is basically the government's Big Society policy, isn't it, bamboo? Where community groups look after their own and the government helps them out with a bit of cash in exchange for not having to provide any infrastructure for service delivery.

"But has the faith school taken away resources? "

Yes, it has taken public resources from people who aren't of that faith, and given them to people who are of that faith. Even if it does let in a few heathens on a discretionary basis.

Northey - yes, pretty much. And it's worrying.

The people of non-faith still receive an education though don't they? There are more non faith schools than faith schools.