To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

Surely it is very wasteful for children to be travelling loads of miles in different directions just so they can attend a faith (or non-faith) school.

Yes, for some people it is of paramount importance that their child attend the 'right' faith school (as it clearly is to you, HiddenHome) - but for most people it's not. If people are religious then they can accommodate that within the family, and if they aren't, then most won't be all that happy with their child attending enforced worship. To have this strange dichotomy of faith / non-faith state schools just doesn't make sense.

HiddenHome - yes, possibly in many areas there is a 'choice' of Catholic / non-Catholic schools. But because some Catholic schools are selective and discriminatory, this skews the 'choice', putting schools who don't discriminate at a disadvantage (as discussed upthread).

Parents are just making use of the choices that are available to them, which is what anybody would do. I live in the NE and we don't have state grammer schools. I understand that places in the SE do still have state grammer schools. We're at a disadvantage, but we just get on with it and try to make the best of it.

I don't see that grammar schools are relevant to the faith school argument (though you could at argue that at least in theory, every child has a chance of attending a grammar school regardless of what faith they were born into).

Re 'just getting on with it', that's easier to say when the system is working in a way which suits you and your religious preferences.

It didn't used to though, which is why I had to pull the kids out. I can see both sides of the argument. Parents just have to make the decision based on what they believe.

How come every thread that mentions Catholicism ends up about schools? I know everyone resents Catholic schools, it's a shame because they're not how people imagine.

Wasn't the issue of schools first mentioned by a catholic on this thread?

I can't remember, I haven't read all the posts. Just always seems to end up about education I don't have all the answers, I just know that I like Catholic education and think the benefits outweigh any disadvantages (of which there are many in mainstream schools, having suffered extensively in the mainstream system myself when younger)

But it comes across as if you think mentioning catholic education is catholic bashing, when it was a catholic who brought up a point about catholic schools, so other posters responded.

Schools are where most of us (being mainly parents) are affected by religious privilege. Hence the interest, I would have thought.

"Ok, look. I'm obvipusly really really stupid, and people will tell me that this has been explained hundreds of times alrqdy, but humour me..

Imagine a village with two primary schools. One RC. One non faith.

Jim lives next to the Catholic school, but isn't a Catholic. The other school is 2 miles away. Mary lives a mile away but is a Catholic.

Jim doesn't get a place at the Catholic school, but Mary does. It is entirely possible that Jim doesn't get a place at the other school because he lives too far away.

And the ONLY reason Mary gets a place at the RC school is because the Church partially funds it. Nothing do with Catholic education. because Catholics don't believe anything different to any other Christian, so they don't need any specific Catholic education. It's purely a matter of funding. Is that right?"

I'm c and p ing- because I still haven't had an answer. And please nobody tell me I'm catholic bashing- because I'm not. I'm asking a question.

" I know everyone resents Catholic schools, it's a shame because they're not how people imagine."

If it's any consolation, my objection to faith schools has nothing to do with Catholic schools per se. I resent my taxes going towards state-sponsored religion, whatever the faith is.

HiddenHome - I would guess that the reason it often comes around to education is because:

• discriminatory schools admissions policies (of the type which many faith schools practise) is one of the issues which affect parents, and is quite an emotive one.

• many parents are fed up with the state promoting religion to their children, as they believe religious worship has no place in state schools.

If only life were this black and white eh?

Would you call yourself a Conservative if some of your views were liberal?
Can you be a Muslim if you are a woman who doesn't wear a jihab?
Are you a chef if you sometimes make microwaved meals?
Could you be an Irish catholic and a member of the police force?

What is that mantra, that if you want things to change you have to start from within? Well as a long standing catholic, who still goes to church, that is my stance. The church gives me guidelines on how to live my life. They would not throw me out if I rejected some of their guidelines. In fact many priests welcome debate and they even question some aspects of the catholic teaching - does that mean they should not be catholic priests?

The church has admitted many mistakes in the past and no doubt it will admit many more. We are not sheep, we are people with our own minds and unanswered questions and we will bang on and on about things from within so that we can start to see changes. This is already happening in some of the catholic publications which encourage debate and have controversial arguments and different points of view and in church groups all over the country.

So yes, you are being completely unreasonable, arrogant, bitter and ignorant.

Sorry I realise the discussion has moved on but as there are over 500 posts I can't get involved in a debate that has covered probably every topic so I'm just answering the OP.

And btw, I think education should be secular.

I agree education should be secular. And I think America shows it is possibel for schools to be secular, but religion to still be important

This week we had a major health scare with regards to my mum. I was in quite a state about it actually. My "non religious" DP told me that he "prayed" to God that everything would be OK, he has done this for his dad too. He is starting to believe - but he thinks the whole "church" side of things is a load of old bullshit - i think probalby, because of all the bitching that goes one about it.

I like being a Catholic, i feel that i "belong" even though i don't practice and don't hold with all of the beliefs.

Everyone is different - Thank God

To pick up on the secular religeon thing. I went to a catholic school. I am a lazy arse lapsed catholic who doesn't have a deep knowledge of catholicism. I have sent my DD to a catholic school and am grateful that she is being educated in that environment as i am too damned lazy to do this myself i don't feel my knowledge is sufficient to guide her. The school do this well and i think it reflects in the type of caring little girl my DD is.

I answered you, seeker, addressing your question about difference. I think it was the post that came immediately after yours.

The French also have a secular education system and yet their catholic churches are full every Sunday and they still hold a traditional and religious way of life for the most part.

My kids go to state schools as I want them to experience all aspects of faith including those who choose not to believe. I was educated in a catholic school and didn't learn anything about other religions.

It does mean that I have to go the extra mile if I want them to receive the sacraments (like First Holy Communion) but I feel that parents should be involved in that anyway and I like that I'm there in all the classes, encouraging my children to ask questions.

And I do think having faith schools of whatever religion causes division and unhappiness between different groups of people - rightly or wrongly. Having secular schools bypasses all of that.

boringnickname - Some religions have lots of religious education for children outside of schools - not just Sunday School. So this can easily be overcome.

If it's any consolation, my objection to faith schools has nothing to do with Catholic schools per se. I resent my taxes going towards state-sponsored religion, whatever the faith is.

I'm really glad you said that, bamboo, as sometimes it feels like Catholics are being blamed for the existence of faith schools full stop (possibly because Catholics run the most, outside of the C of E, which is the national religion).

I just wish my children could go to secular schools.

"And I do think having faith schools of whatever religion causes division and unhappiness between different groups of people - rightly or wrongly. Having secular schools bypasses all of that."

Agree. And with the UK being a multi-faith, multi-cultural society, I would be very sad if the trend were for children were to become (even more) divided by faith schools.

Bamboo, faith organizations contribute to faith schools. I think the norm is 10-15%. So your taxes don't really pay for religious instruction in faith schools, they cover the cost of teaching the curriculum.

In secondary school I worked this out, by calculating the proportion of my timetable spent on each subject.

Seeker, re Mary and Jim, are you saying that Jim wouldn't get an education because he lived close to a catholic school but wasn't catholic?