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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

741 replies

zombiegames · 29/04/2012 10:07

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

OP posts:

HouseOfBamboo · 01/05/2012 10:30

"Educating Catholic children together means that they can all receive the correct instruction in the Sacraments etc. and also be helped to understand the Christian faith and how to incorporate it into daily life and live out their faith authentically as they get older."

But how does this tie in with Catholic schools who accept children from other faiths or no faith?

Northey · 01/05/2012 10:34

At my school, those children and their parents were asked at the beginning if they supported the catholic ethos of the school and whether they had any objection to the fact that there would be masses and liturgies and so on.

Presumably if they had not supported it, they would have gone elsewhere if that was an option, or, if there were special reasons for attending the school but a serious problem with catholic worship (eg maybe a looked after child who was a Jehovah's witness, maybe), they and the school would have worked something out.

Northey · 01/05/2012 10:36

Personally I see such added value in faith based education that if a catholic school was not available for my child, I would actively choose a Jewish/Muslim/Sikh option over a secular state school.

HouseOfBamboo · 01/05/2012 10:41

Northey - it's surely not ideal though, is it, for non-Catholic children to attend a school which has Catholicism 'running through its veins', as it were?

btw there's no such thing in England (not sure about the whole of the UK) as a 'secular school', all state schools, whether church or not, have to have Christian worship. from humanism.org

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 10:43

HouseOfBamboo, the non Catholic children don't attend instruction classes which are there to prepare the children for their First Communion. Everything else, they do attend, such as Mass, visits to church and Easter preparation etc.

Any parent who objects would probably be asked why they'd sent their child to Catholic school in the first place. The non Catholics are expected to be tolerant and just join in.

Both my dcs go to Catholic school and the religious side of the education is very inclusive and thoughtful. It really helps them to understand their Christian life - far more than just going to Sunday school each week. It's a way of life.

vezzie · 01/05/2012 10:45

In theory. In practice it clearly doesn't work if the people on here who went to Catholic schools believe that excommunications for dissent are anomalies, the sacraments don't really matter or are no different from in other churches, catholics have the right to make up their own minds on things like homosexuality, contraception and abortion.

The Catholic church is a hierarchical institution which is structured with specific layers of authority who pronounce upon doctrine. If you are a woman you will never be part of this hierarchy. You don?t get to choose what to believe, and therefore, by extension, what is the right thing to do, even in the most personal matters of your own life and your own bodily integrity. If you don?t know or accept this, and you consider yourself to be a Catholic, you are deluded. It is of course true that throughout the ages many self identifying Catholics ? arguably the vast majority - have had little or no grasp of doctrine. However unlike previous ages we are now free to educate ourselves, either with books or internet resources or discussion with other people on the internet. If you choose not to avail yourself of these opportunities, I can?t think why.
I am leaving this thread now because it?s reached a point where I can no longer relevantly contribute.

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 10:46

HouseOfBamboo my kid's old school had virtually no religion in it - including during assembly. It was phased out over the course of about 4 years. I noticed this happening and didn't feel happy or comfortable, so I pulled them out.

The religion in the Catholic schools doesn't take the form of any kind of indoctrination - there's no hell fire and brimstone or anything like that. The non Catholic kids don't feel threatened or excluded, nor are they brainwashed. It's difficult to describe, but they seem to have gotten the balance right.

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 10:49

vezzie if you are happy to be obedient to God, then these things aren't a big issue. Most Catholics aren't in a state of constant scrutiny and criticism of their faith, their relationship with Christ is what is central to their lives.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/05/2012 10:49

Of course religious instruction with kids of any religion is indoctrination. It is teaching them that certain beliefs and ways of doing things are the right ones.

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 10:50

People are looking at this from a protestant point of view and most Catholics just don't have that mindset.

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 10:52

It's not indoctrination in the way that they would be in a lot of trouble if they voiced their dissent or disbelief to the teacher/priest though. The children are permitted to speak their minds and to have those views respected.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/05/2012 10:53

I understand what you mean. But most kids follow their parents religion for a reason - that is the religion they were brought up in as kids and taught was generally the right one.

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 10:54

We all raise our children within the belief systems that we hold - whether that's religious, atheist, racist, political, whatever. We pass our values down, then children are free to make up their own minds as they get older.

Kayano · 01/05/2012 10:55

I was volunteering at a catholic school one
(this is absolutely unrelated btw) and there was a
Muslim girl crying at Easter. I went to comfort her and she cried that she 'couldn't do it because her Granddad was Muslim' I was in the middle of trying to console her when another little girl piped up 'that's nothing, my granddad is a rapist!'

I was like WHAT?!?! Just because I was so shocked. She then started to tell me and I had to stop her ASAP!

I did have a meeting with the teacher as soon as I could. I was like 'how does one respond to that?!?!'

HouseOfBamboo · 01/05/2012 10:56

"Any parent who objects would probably be asked why they'd sent their child to Catholic school in the first place. The non Catholics are expected to be tolerant and just join in. "

Can't you see how profoundly unfair this is to a child and their family who have few other options but to attend a Catholic school (eg it could be the only school for miles around, or the only one that wasn't oversubscribed)? It is just wrong for schools who have this attitude to be part of standard state provision.

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 10:57

But how many Catholics on this thread have been brought up Catholic, but have rejected it as they have become older? Quite a few. I wasn't even brought up as a Catholic, but have joined the church. People can make up their own minds. You can't force a Catholic to love and serve Christ. You can introduce them to this concept when they're young. Teach them how to follow the Sacraments, but, ultimately, they must find their own way of having that relationship. They're also free to reject it as well. God doesn't force people to love Him.

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 10:59

Most Catholic schools are situated near to mainstream schools. How many parents don't have a choice? In our area it would never happen that there wasn't a choice.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/05/2012 11:00

Other people have also said on this thread that even though they don't believe a lot the church says, they will always be a catholic becausethat is what they were brought up as.

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 11:00

Kayano that's a child protection issue. Muslim children are included in celebrations. If they can't take communion, then they stand in line and receive a blessing instead. No-one is rejected and no-one is forced to take part either.

Kayano · 01/05/2012 11:01

Your area is obviously the staple for the entire uk

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 11:03

Being a Catholic involves cultural and family traditions EatsBrains. This is true. Personally, I believe that, to be a Catholic (Christian) one has to have a relationship with God through Christ and to follow the faith by attending Church and receiving the Sacraments. What people believe is up to them though, we're not in the position to judge.

Kayano · 01/05/2012 11:03

I know hidden, that was just what happened. As I was saying I was talking to her about her issues and we were colouring in together (I actually think the issue was caused by comments made by the grandfather outside)

And I reported what was said ASAP. That was just how the conversation came about

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 11:05

No, of course it's not Kayano. I would like to hear other people's experiences. From what I understand the vast majority of areas in the UK have both Catholic and mainstream schools relatively near to one another. We travel 2 miles to our Catholic school and ds1 travels 7 miles to his Catholic secondary. People may have to travel a little way to find the school of their choice, but that works both ways - for Catholics and mainstream people.

hiddenhome · 01/05/2012 11:09

HouseOfBamboo my children were expected to tolerate and just join in with the increasingly secular assemblies. ds1 also went into the CofE church and sang songs at Christmas about shopping, santa and food instead of carols. I found this a very sad experience as, to me, Christmas is about Jesus. My children tolerated that. It works both ways, which is why I decided to pull them out.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/05/2012 11:13

But they weren't being taught any real belief sysyem in secular assemblies surely? You missed them being taught about christianity, but missing the lack of something isn't the same as objecting to what your DCs are actually being taught.

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