To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

Many women I know in the Catholic church, and many priests, are very sympathetic to the idea that in some cases abortion might be the lesser of two evils.

But you know what, if those of us who see the shades of grey leave the church, who is left there? The really hard-liners, who want no changes and women in the kitchen.

Is that you want: an even more hard-line church? Going back to an earlier post I made here, it seems to me that some of you hate liberal Catholics much more than you hate orthodox Catholics. You seem to find us threatening because we don't correspond to the stereotype.

Sacraments are not as sacrosanct as you might think. It used to be the case that only the priest received communion. Then things were changed so that the congregation received it too.

I hope for the same thing in relation to the sacrament of marriage. Currently only male/female pairings can receive it. I hope for a time when things are changed so that male/male or female/female pairings can receive it.

Zombie in the absence of as much as a mention of alternatives, your nieces and nephews are taught The theory of evolution.

Vezzie are you saying that the Catholic Church can't be changed?

No they are not. Other schools teach it as fact. My neices and nephews don't believe in evolution and are clear that it is just a theory they are taught.

And do these other liberal catholic schools encourage parents to let their daughters have the HPV vaccine? Or even refrain from saying they shouldn't have it?

Well then the other schools might want to check they are doing it right, because as far as the scientific community is concerned, it counts as a theory. A massively accepted one, with no actual likely l alternatives, but still technically a theory (in scientific language).

Northey, but this is the church now. There are other churches in which conscience plays a bigger part; teachings on sexual morality is less rigid and more equal; women can take a full part in church life; priests can marry. the Catholic church has specifically and explicitly set its face against all these things. Why do you want to say you are a part of it if you disagree with this?

If you go back to the early church, there were all sorts of different customs (like married priests) that have been rooted out in Catholicism and persisted or been revived in other churches. The Catholic Church has defined itself deliberately and explicitly as taking the form it does now

Because I see that the church has changed in the past and therefore conclude it is not impossible for it to change in the future.

Dione, I would like to think that the Catholic church can be changed, and of course it is possible in principle. but in our lifetimes I wouldn't get our hopes up for real doctrinal change.

Don't get me wrong, I think catholics are often very good people who do much good in their communities. At least they are christian and therefore on the whole give a fuck (now that people aren't frowned on for not attending church, the ones who do are very often those who care about moral and ethical issues and want to do the right thing) (as of course are lots of people of other or no faiths too). I just think that the doctrine, as officially and explicitly preached, is hatey and dangerous and I wonder how people who have realised this somehow don't mind; and I think their looking the other way does, collectively, have an effect on the world

DSis works in catholic post-primary education. HPV vaccine is available and recommended. Like any other vaccination, the pupils are given information and permission slips are sent home to parents.

What schools don't?

Maybe the issue is that people pretend to be Catholic to send their kids to Catholic schools and then take issue with the church's teachings? More important than Papal infallibility should be the basic Christian tenet of not lying!
Am I completely alone in finding it outrageous that people pretend to be Catholic or 'rediscover' their faith when it comes to where their kids go to school? It is no coincidence that even in less advantaged areas, the socioeconomic profile of Catholic schools is more middle class than other schools, and really this whole debate is so imbued with middle-class entitlement.
For those canny enough to read ofsted reports and show up at Mass on a Sunday (attendance falling off dramatically once their dc actually gets into Catholic school), I think it is dishonest and unfair.
It also gives priests such power - in our local parish the pp used to take a roll call! Education should be secular!

Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2357:
"Homosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."

Definitely homophobic

The catholic school my nieces and nephews go to has advised parents that they should not allow their daughters to have the HPV vaccine as it is a "sexually transmitted disease" and that it will not be offered through the school. And the implication was that this is standard in catholic schools.

And I have heard all about this one as it is the only catholic pronouncement that I think has caused real divisions in my family.

But it has changed tremendously in living memory. The catholic church of my mother's childhood is hugely different to the Catholic church today.

My dniece has had the hpv vaccine in a catholic school.

Do all of you anti catholics only engage with any organization you agree with every aspect of?

For example do you boycott all Nestle products despite the fact that they encourage women in the third world to use formula they can ill afford with dirty water.

Do you know the ins and outs of your children's schools? Which charities they support which may infact be doing more harm than good.

Do you support the labour party despite being anti war?

I'm interested to know.

I am not anti catholic actually and I hate that anyone who dares criticise catholicism is seen as anti catholic

Wow Zombie that is DREADFUL, nearly all the girls in my niece's Catholic school had the HPV jab.
I didn't think schools could opt out of having it offered. What have they been advised to do instead?

Or, if you are Tory voters, do you agree with every single area in which they are applying the public spending cuts?

You are not anti catholic? What are you? Pro Catholic?

Precisely Northey.

The top and bottom of it is that with any huge organization you cannot agree with every aspect. However you can support parts and play a part in an organization despite reservations.

If I didn't I'd never leave my house.

I had understood from what the school have said not offering the HPV virus was official catholic school policy. They may not have actually said that, but that is the impression everyone in my family who has got kids at the school have got. I honestly didn't know that other schools did offer it. So maybe the local catholic school is much more right wing than ordinary catholic schools?

They have been advised that their daughters shouldn't get the HPV vaccine at all as it is sexually transmitted. If they are good catholics, the vaccine is apparently not necessary. And as I said, this has caused real divisions and one major falling out in my family i.e. whether to get nieces vaccinated instead at GP.

This school is flying in the face of CES guidelines on the HPV vaccine, who recommend that in order to irradiate HPV fully the vaccine programme should be rolled out to boys too.

Yes I know Dione and flying in the face of basic common sense.

Dione, I was careful to say "doctrinal". It may look different, but key doctrines are what I am talking about - they won't change. I bet. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

Nomorecakeoclock - I am not anti-catholic, but I am challenging the cherry-pickers, so I will answer your question. I do avoid all nestle, which is far easier than ditching the church of my cultural heritage so not a great example.
I do not feel able to dissociate myself from things that I think are wrong as completely as I would like to, and it does bother me. I can't vote labour but who the hell I can vote for is a big problem every time. I wish I could make a living without engaging as fully as I have to with a form of capitalism which is extremely problematic for me.

but I can choose my church

Right. Firstly, I haven't read any of the thread apart from the OP, and I have no idea whether committed Roman Catholics consider that the Pope is a completely infallible person who is Christ's representative on earth or not.
However, Y are sooo NBU. I do not see how people can cherry pick from any part of the specific branch of whichever faith they choose to identify with, or have been born into.

If you are a RC then you should always respect the word of the Pope - the leader of the RC church. If you cannot do that then perhaps you ought to reconsider whether Roman Catholicism is right for you.