To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

I think there is a difference between breaking the rules and just not believing in the rules.

LeBFG, I don't know of a single school that doesn't teach evolution as fact, although someone posted on MN a little while ago that it was happening in A school that seemed to be overtaken by American Fundamentalists. Given the media attention on anything religious in society now, I doubt that the teaching of Creationism would go unmentioned.

Sex education and education about contraception are definitely taught in catholic schools. Perhaps your neighbors took their DCs out of that class.

My nieces and nephews at catholic school have been taught evolution in science lessons as one of the theories about how the world started. With a clear emphasis on it just being a theory.

You don't have to believe everything the Catholic Church teaches to still be a Catholic.

My priest doesn't believe that it is wrong to be gay. I still think he classes himself as a catholic

Sory have't read the whole thread but ow old are you OP?

My nan was brought up with the fear of God, as was my mother but the Catholic Church has certainly softened since their day. If not centrally at least in the Churches.

Stupid iPhone spelling!

YABU

I am older. But tbh things don't seem to have changed much in terms of what my nieces and nephews are taught. Don't know about the rest of the family as we avoid talking about religion. But my nieces and nephews will just volunteer what they have been taught e.g. about evolution when it was mentioned on tv.

Well to be honest I think you are coming at your side of the argument with outdated experiences.

I can totally understand why people left the church when they were banned from attending after divorce etc but certainly in my church and local area that doesn't happen any more.

We are lucky to have young, forward thinking priests and teachers at my dcs schools.

Everyone has different experiences but I have only had positive experiences of the church and their support.

For example the church fought for my dn to get the necessary adaptations for her to go to mainstream school, they visit my grandparents regularly to check they are ok and generally care about people.

Our church is also involved with other religions in the town and organize events to bring together Muslim groups and christian groups. Hardly draconian here.

Your dniece and nephew might have a draconian teacher OR they might be winding you up.

I can't speak for anyone else, but this is what annoys me about the cherry picking:

If you are cherry picking, you are explicitly supporting something that actually you do not believe in. Presumably you don't believe in it because you think it is silly, or even cruel (I bet most people in this country think that a good proportion of Catholic teachings are silly or cruel). This means you are perpetuating something that is actually harmful, and you know it.

This is worse, to me, than perpetuating it in the belief that it is actually good (which I bet few Catholics honestly sincerely have in this country about the teachings on extra marital sex, contraception etc); and particularly in the case where you are benefiting from doing what the hell you like at the same time (eg having a mirena instead of 13 children). In that case, you are inflicting misery and pain on other people, or supporting that infliction, which you have no intention of bearing yourself.

So people are directly having their lives ruined by your complacent behaviour. Because the Catholic Church could not go on as it does without the support of however many million "catholics". So they continue to promote homophobia (which can result in injury, illness, depression, death), deny abortions (including to raped children), deny contraception (including to women who will die if they have more children). this is not a joke, this is not a minor cultural harmless cosy tradition about sending your kids to a school with posh hats and socks. Wake up and take responsibility.

But what is the alternative? No religion is perfect. If you want to go to church and have faith then what do you suggest?

The Catholic Church would not encourage anyone to go out and harm anyone as a result of their teachings.

Our Catholic school does not have posh hats and socks it takes in some of the most deprived kids in the country and offers them a family they don't have at home.

Zombie, what other theories are they taught

Telling catholics not to use condoms in countries that are rife with AIDS harms and kills people.
Telling parents not to vaccinate their daughters against HPV risks harming their health through cervical cancer.

Don't know Dione as I honestly avoid discussing catholicismw ith my still catholic relatives. But when evolution was mentioned on the tv and I said something trivial, my DN made it clear that it is only a theory. When i asked him where he learned that, he said he was taught in science class that evolution was 1 theory - and I am paraprasing here.

I understand the point you are making, vezzie, but what is the support that you think the Catholic church gets from me that enables it to do idiotic things like the campaign against gay marriage? I'm certainly not signing the petition. I'm not going to mass at the moment, so they are not even getting any money from me at the offertory. How does the church benefit from me identifying myself as catholic on mumsnet?

'Evolution is not taught in ALL faith schools Dione - and I suspect (without any personal experience) that where it is taught, it is presented as a theory, not fact.'

Erm, well evolution is a theory. As the laboratory does not exist that could test out a theory over billions of years, the span of evolution, it will remain a theory. A highly likely and most probable theory, and the best we have, but one that it is impossible, at the moment, to test.

I learned about evolution in convent school in the late seventies. Catholics are not hung up on evolution. We don't take Genesis as literal truth.

I would be stunned if Catholic schools in this country taught Genesis as scientific fact. We are usually told that it is a metaphor for creation. Just as we do not literally believe that all the species of the world could fit into Noah's ark.

zombie, I think technically evolution is a theory, isn't it? Just the one that is overwhelmingly accepted. I say this a someone who is v happy with it, btw. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty certain that that is the case.

I don't suppose there is a professional scientist on the thread who could say for certain?

Northey, as an individual you might think it makes no difference, but by identifying as Catholic you are supporting this sort of thing and giving it credibility. If everyone who thinks gay relationships are ok publically distanced themselves from the catholic church, it would find itself in a very different position, at least in this country.
Also, the catholic church is not a democracy. There is no point in staying within it in the hope that you could influence it from the inside (as with some institutions). This is harsh - I know it is harsh - but the ONLY way you can meaningfully express that you are not a part of things like homophobia is to say: I AM NOT A CATHOLIC.

It is a theory as much as gravity is a theory. That is why most schools teach it as fact.

vezzie, I think it is just as valid to do what lots of Catholics here seem to do, which is not to mention their Catholicism at all until a thread like this pops up, saying that unless you are homophobic you are nOt a proper catholic (which I think is pretty bad in itself for reinforcing the link in some people's minds) and then saying, "I am catholic and I support at marriage."

*Support gay marriage.

Actually I started this thread because of lots of catholics who were posting on other threads defending catholicism including one who started her own thread. I don't know if they are on here as fairly new so still struggling to remember any names.

By the way: someone upthread mentioned that the Catholic Church doesn't have a problem with moral shades of grey, citing the notion of Just War as an example. I think that this is what makes their hard line on things like abortion particularly obscene.

On the one hand, you can be subtle enough to say: ok innocents might be killed, schools might be bombed, but fascism (say) must be stopped. Fair enough. Bertrand Russell dropped his pacifism in WW2 because he felt that the world was confronting an evil beyond anything. Not an easy decision to make; but life is hard, subtleties are required, tough decisions must be made.

However, on the other hand, whenever a human egg is fertilised, those two cells immediately become a person who is automatically more worthy of protection than the woman they are inside. Automatically. Even if she will die if the pregnancy continues. Why no shades of grey here? Why no subtleties here? At the same time as: no women priests; no married priests; no meaningful position at all for women within the church hierarchy; no control for women over preventing pregnancy.

All this a coincidence? Just happens to be how Jesus wanted things to be for 51% of the population? Or a little bit hatey?

what do you think? What do you want to do about it? Whose side are you on?

But Northey, how are you Catholic if you support gay marriage? You can't mess about with sacraments if you are Catholic. That is like saying, "I am vegetarian but I need to eat meat for my health". Well, if you do, you do. but you aren't vegetarian. Maybe your mum is vegetarian, maybe your kids go to vegetarian schools, maybe you celebrate all your major life events in vegetarian restaurants. But you are not vegetarian.

And have other catholic schools that all the catholics on here say are so liberal, also told parents not to vaccinate their daughters against the HPV virus?