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Original poster

To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

741 replies

zombiegames · 29/04/2012 10:07

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

OP posts:
vezzie · 30/04/2012 17:11

I mean I accept that if you think that sacraments are a special kind of immutable magic that only the priest can do, and you are going to hell without them, then I guess you can't choose your church. You're stuck with the catholics, and only having sex if you are married and ready for a baby, and accepting that women are just not as good as men and can never be priests, and that it is better for whole continents of people to be ravaged with AIDS than use condoms. Oh well.
But not all catholics do - Northey for instance thinks that sacraments aren't a special kind of immutable magic and that marriage, for instance, could, in principle, change. So there are lots of churches for Northey

Northey · 30/04/2012 17:15

If you are a RC then you should always respect the word of the Pope - the leader of the RC church. If you cannot do that then perhaps you ought to reconsider whether Roman Catholicism is right for you.

If you are English, then you should always respect the word of David Cameron, the PM of the country. If you cannot do that, perhaps you should consider emigrating.

Plenty of people do not respect Cameron's utterances. Yet they do not emigrate. Do you feel the same way about them as you do about Catholics who support gay marriage?

Northey · 30/04/2012 17:17

Do I detect a note of snideness in your voice, vezzie? Surely not.

Your understanding of sacrament is a bit patchy, I'm afraid. A child can perform baptism, you know.

HouseOfBamboo · 30/04/2012 17:17

"SO this argument only the wealthy can get their kids in to religious schools is tosh. The only requirement is that you go to church

And as going to church is free I don't see how it favours the rich my cousin moved across the frond from a R of E school hoping to get her kids in she didn't get them in beause she didn't go to church often enough"

My point wasn't that you have to be RICH to get your child into a religious school. My point was that with an oversubscribed faith school which selects on church attendance, baptisms etc, the system favours parents who are prepared and organised enough to pretend to be religious in order to get their child in.

And the sort of parents who are prepared to go through this hoop-jumping are often the types who care about their child's education and support them at home. (That's not to say that every parent who is not prepared to do the hoop-jumping isn't a good parent of course).

Clararara · 30/04/2012 17:19

I am in agreement with Zombiegames on this.

I think it's right that people use their own conscience rather than believing everything their church tells them about issues like gay marriage....But.... to me what this shows is that if you are thinking for yourself, and it leads you to pick and choose what you believe, then you really ought to be sitting down and asking some bigger questions. If your church (whatever religion) is wrong about those issues, what else are they wrong about?

Can you really pick and choose which bits suit you from a religion?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I might be), but didn't the Catholic church change the stance on unbaptized babies going to limbo, because it was a was a bloody horrific lie thing to tell grieving parents. If the catholic church can change its view on a major theological "truth" that has been around for years, how many other things is it wrong about....and so, thread by thread it all starts to unravel (imho).

Look at all the damage done with HIV and AIDS in Africa by churches telling people they shouldn't use condoms. In my opinion, even if you disagree with this, like a lot of decent people, by still supporting the catholic church, albeit with your nice, reasonable, liberal viewpoints, are you not condoning and legitimising, and putting an "acceptible face" on an organisation which has been responsible for some pretty awful things?

I'm not trying to upset anyone here, but talking religion is always risky. It's a fascinating topic though. If I have offended your religion here I am sorry- just trying to make some thinking points. If it makes you feel any better, I will supposedly burn in hell for being an atheist. xx

DioneTheDiabolist · 30/04/2012 17:21

It sounds like it Zombie. I think your local school shows why it is important to check out the school ethos. I would never send my DS to such a school. I am not surprised you feel as you do if this is your experience.

vezzie · 30/04/2012 17:22

yes Northey I do know that. but you have to have holy communion on sundays and holy days to stay out of hell and only the priest can do that magic

vezzie · 30/04/2012 17:23

also you have to be married by a priest to have sex without going to hell

vezzie · 30/04/2012 17:23

also you have a better chance of not going to hell if the priest comes and does the sacrament of the sick on you when you are dying

vezzie · 30/04/2012 17:24

also only the priest can do absolution which is an important part of not going to hell

vezzie · 30/04/2012 17:24

and you need an actual bishop to do confirmation on you

vezzie · 30/04/2012 17:25

I don't know why you think I am being snide, this is all doctrine

NoMoreCakeOclock · 30/04/2012 17:25

Vezzie do you have a religion?

Kayano · 30/04/2012 17:27

Clararara that's exactly what I was trying to say last night but you put it much better

vezzie · 30/04/2012 17:27

and of course you don't have to agree with Cameron to live here. But if you don't like what he says, you get to exercise a vote. or even stand for parliament. Even women are allowed to do this if they want to. It's not a perfect system, but it's better than nothing

Codandchops · 30/04/2012 17:31

Our local (and outspoken) priest says that the Catholic church have backed themselves into a corner over gay relationships and a lot more (no he is not "flavour of the month" with the Bishop).

Surely if we are Christian then we can follow Christ via any Christ centred church. For me that's Catholicism despite not agreeing with their stance on many issues. I discussed these issues at length with our priest before becoming Catholic. His stance is that the church have backed themselves into a corner over certain issues and have nowhere to go. I feel that there will be changes but that these will only come from people within the faith speaking out. I plan to be one of the outspoken ones Grin and already am.

NoMoreCakeOclock · 30/04/2012 17:33

Exactly codandchops. The church will be changed by the people who are a part of the church NOT by the people who leave the church.

So many young priests are forward thinking and all embracing. They are the future of the church.

Kayano · 30/04/2012 17:36

Then
It either
Discredits the faith if you just speak out to change it willy nilly

Or it means you are actively supporting an organisation that represents sexism, homophobia and helps spread aids.

I would feel the same about someone who said 'I vote BNP but I personally am not racist'

No... Hmm you just give false ideas about what the organisation stands for

IMO. I thought about it since last night and it does still really annoy me

Northey · 30/04/2012 17:40

It might discredit the faith in your eyes, kayano, but it doesn't in mine.

NoMoreCakeOclock · 30/04/2012 17:41

Faith has evolved over thousands of years and will continue to evolve.

Kayano, do you never buy any nestle products, even subsidiaries. Do you boycott Marks and Spencer? Do you boycott Tesco?

Otherwise you are no better than someone who says "I vote BNP but am not racist"

The comparison I find insulting because I am a Catholic because I believe in God and the Sacrament. Not because I am homophobic etc etc. It's a crass comparison if you ask me. The BNP advocates hating groups. The Catholic Church does not.

Kayano · 30/04/2012 17:43

But by your argument if enough people speak out and 'change the faith' to (ridiculous example) say that Jesus didn't rise again on the third day, he was actually just dead...

Then of course that would discredit that particular faith, the whole premise being he died for our sins and rose again....

So how can you just 'decide' to change
Other things integral to an entire religion?

Kayano · 30/04/2012 17:46

So I am like a BNP member because I like a kit Kat... Hmm o....k....

Didn't nestle change their practices 20 years ago? As far as I'm aware the catholic church is still actively fighting against gay marriage. And I could associate myself to an institution that had some absolute fundamental differences I my own beliefs...

Northey · 30/04/2012 17:46

Depends what counts as being integral to a religion, kayano. Social teaching is not something I would say is integral. Others may disagree. But in my eyes gay marriage is much, much more peripheral than the belief that Christ died for us and rose again.

Kayano · 30/04/2012 17:48

It's still part of it though. It doesn't matter if it's 'central'.

NoMoreCakeOclock · 30/04/2012 17:50

Erm Kayano I am like a BNP member because I go to Church... ok!

No Nestle have not changed practices.