To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

No, but what you have suggested is a state school.
If you don't want your child to have a faith and object to school worship, why would you choose a faith school?

If a school is funded by tax-payers money, it should serve all tax payers, not just the ones it picks and chooses.

It's like saying Christian Aid should only help Christian children.

"If you don't want your child to have a faith and object to school worship, why would you choose a faith school?"

That argument only holds up if there were a faith school and a 'non-faith' school side by side in each area of the country, where everyone had a genuine choice of which one to send their child to. That patently isn't the case.

Oh and of course if the state is to be funding faith schools, then they should fund one for each religion in each catchment area, surely?

Then it's kind of up to the government to build more non faith schools. Not up to the religious groups to hand over their schools.

Bamboo the issue of funding is discussed upthread.

But why would someone who has no faith and wishes their child had no participation in worship chose to send them to faith school?

"Not up to the religious groups to hand over their schools."

But they are paid for by the tax payer, so they are not really 'their' schools, are they?

They are. Because the buildings and land are owned by thereligious groups, not the state. And they are only partially funded by the state.

I agree with that Bamboo - I would have been most unhappy if my son's school had refused him on the basis of not being Catholic when it was the best school for ASD support locally.

I think schools should take from the local commuity. Fact is that many schools do not though - many select on the basis of faith, ability (Grammer), siblings or in other ways. In this day and age I am not sure that faith should be a selection criteria but we do have schools which are partially funded by the church so......on and on in circles

"But why would someone who has no faith and wishes their child had no participation in worship chose to send them to faith school?"

Lots of reasons - eg because it's the only school for miles around? It's down to lack of choice in the end. And some faith schools (not all) have good academic reputations, due to exercising discriminatory admissions policies (also mentioned upthread I believe).

Sorry ex-post there Bamboo.
Where there is no non faith school, does the faith school not accept applicants on the basis of catchment area?

Also I don't understand the argument that faith schools do better academically because of religion based admission policy. I don't think that being one religion or none has a bearing on intelligence.

Results and proximity

The end

"Where there is no non faith school, does the faith school not accept applicants on the basis of catchment area?"

I think where faith schools have admissions policies, there's a hierarchy of criteria, with No. 1 being 'being of the right faith, baptised at birth, etc'. Catchment might only be a criteria if there aren't enough children of the 'right' religion applying.

Having said that I think some schools do have an 'allocation' of children of different faiths, or no faith. It depends on the school.

"Also I don't understand the argument that faith schools do better academically because of religion based admission policy. I don't think that being one religion or none has a bearing on intelligence."

It can be to do with exercising selection based on criteria other than catchment. Once a school gets even a slightly better reputation than a competitor school in the same area, parents will fight to get their children in there. This may take the form of attending church / getting children baptised when they otherwise wouldn't have. The type of parents who are prepared to make this effort are likely to be the ones who support their child at home and don't have chaotic lifestyles. Hence the school benefits from its discriminatory admissions policy, and the competitor school is at even more of a disadvantage.

"They are. Because the buildings and land are owned by thereligious groups, not the state. And they are only partially funded by the state."

I think some faith schools are almost wholly funded by the state. And just because the church owns the buildings and land, they couldn't exist as schools if the taxpayer wasn't paying for everything else. It's like saying that if I were a shop landlord, I automatically own the businesses of all the shops who rent my premises.

Liberal catholic here! Sex before marriage, contraception, gay friends, no objections to gay marriage.

My Roman Catholic secondary school taught that it was more important to follow your conscience and question your faith and religion rather than follow all teachings blindly.

I follow my conscience and happily it coincides with the most important teachings of the church. (transubstantiation, the assumption, love thy neighbour.) I don't judge others on how well I think they follow their own religion or not.

WRT the pope he is only infallible if ex cathedra is used (very rare event). When the current Pope dies a lot of people would like to see a more progressive man instated. Pope Benedict was chosen because he was a traditionalist and an easy option to follow Pope John Paul.

To all those who suggest a change of denomination would be more appropriate, major changes only happen from within!

Re. Religious secondary schools, I can only say based on my own experience it was a good school, it did prioritise those of catholic/christian upbringing but there was a lot of choice in the town (four other secular schools in the town). Mainly because the other schools in the town were the better ones there was never any outcry about it being a faith school and its selective admissions system. (Other schools selected by academic ability, proximity and sex (three were single sex schools)).

Good point about the churches and education. Indeed, and I would say, in general, I agree with much of christian preaching (morality etc) and many of the good works of the churches is undeniably a good thing for society. When I said about liberal thought, I was thinking of sex education, learning about evolution... church schools don't exactly go out of their way to CHALLENGE the beliefs of their students, they are there to instruct them in their beliefs.

HouseOfBamboo

Church schools go firstly on how regularly you attained church then if it's a tie breAker then it comes down to the family that lives the closest

Religious school go on diasis rather than catchment area which can cover serval counicils we have a C of E school which takes from 3 local councils

SO this argument only the wealthy can get their kids in to religious schools is tosh. The only requirement is that you go to church

And as going to church is free I don't see how it favours the rich my cousin moved across the frond from a R of E school hoping to get her kids in she didn't get them in beause she didn't go to church often enough

LeBFG it's no a schools job to teach a child about sex it's a parents job

Sorry but it should not matter weather or not a school teaches it because as a parent we should be doing out job a teaching it ourselves

Bamboo Given that it would be impossible for any school to grant a place to all who apply, your scenario with the two schools in competition with eachother would still exist regardless of the faith aspect.

Using your landlord / shopkeeper analogy, what happens is that I want to open a shop. I could buy some land and build my shop or I could let, an abide by the terms of my lease.

leBFG sex education and evolution are taught in faith schools.

Evolution is not taught in ALL faith schools Dione - and I suspect (without any personal experience) that where it is taught, it is presented as a theory, not fact. Sex ed is a general term and I suppose I was thinking about contraception in particular. I know my Catholic neighbour's 4 DCs are only aware of the, admittedly, 100% effective abstinence method of contraception.

And Kitcat - you can believe what you like, if that's what you mean by liberal thought. The thought police don't exist. I just wonder what the pope would say about your beliefs...

YABU. You can be a Catholic and disagree with parts of the Church's teaching.

Our priest hates the new Pope with a passion and reads all of his letters with a raised eyebrow and a wry smile.

Is he not a Catholic?

I have been known to break my lentern promise every single year am I not Catholic?

I think that the Catholic Church can and will evolve to accept that society has moved on and will get rid of many of it's ridiculous outdated 'rules'. I think we are still a long way off but that one day we will get there.

If a Muslim drinks is he not Muslim? If a Catholic has sex before marriage or uses a condom are they not Catholic? Nobody is perfect and most people break some of their religions rules but that does not make them any less a Catholic or Muslim.

I went to a catholic secondary school that was the best performing in the town. It took a wide range of pupils, many from very disadvantaged backgrounds. The performance of the school was purely down to the teachers, not the selection.

I went to a v Catholic school and evolution was most definitely taught. We were taught that God made everything and that included evolution iyswim.

We were taught that the bible stories were sometimes just that. Stories to give moral guidance etc.

Does anyone in this day and age believe every word in the bible. You can be a liberal catholic and thankfully most are.