To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

The pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra.

Can somebody please explain to me why there are state funded catholic schools?

Because there are state funded C of E and Jewish and Sikh and Muslim and Quaker and Greek Orthodox ones, and to single out Catholic ones for banning would be grossly unfair.

Are there? I though it was only C of E and RC. I can just about understand why there are C of E schools as that we have an established church- if we have faith schools at all ( which we shouldn't!) but if Catholics are just the same as any other Christians, as people are arguing on here why do they need separate schools?

OP - YANBU. I'm soooo annoyed at Catholics who think they can pick and mix their faith. The catholic doctrines are clear. When I hear about catholics using birth control measures, my hackles rise - it's OK for educated western catholics to use knowledge of natural birth control measures (!! wtf - having sex for pleasure not procreation ?!!) and at the same time saying all those sex crazed blacks in Africa should control themselves abstain rather than use condoms.... beggars belief

Yes, seeker, there are. And several other ones of other Christian denominations as well.

Lots of people die from Aids abroad because of the Catholic Church's promotion that using condoms is wrong.

zombiegames, I agree with you that many (perhaps majority) of Catholics do not really understand the "official" party line in their church. However, I do think it is unreasonable to expect people to toe the line. People are not cultural/dogma dopes and will always have their own opinions, pope or no pope. What Catholic church is trying to do it unreasonable - to create one solid, unmovable, infallible dogma that is one for all. Individual Catholics, on the other hand, are being rather reasonable people - they think, they doubt, they form own opinions, they behave like normal healthy and adjusted individuals.

Patronsaint - I agree that catholics in practice reject the stuff that is unreasonable and so there are lots of catholic families in the west now for example that don't have 12/13 kids, as some families still did have when I was young. Just according to the official line of the church, imo they shouldn't do this. This is why I am no longer a catholic.

As far as im aware, catholic schools are funded by the church - at least that is how i understood it.

seeker you have been told again and again on this thread and others that the Catholic church may well own the school buildings, grounds and will contribute a minimum of 10% funding. That's WHY we have Catholc schools, C of E schools etc etc etc. We COULD take the faith out of it but the reality is that many of these schools would then close because the Govt could not afford to take on the additional costs. Not a great idea when in some areas children don't even have a school place.

FWIW I am not that bothered about faith schools, my son is in one (Catholic) because it was the only school which had a space when we moved here - he is not Catholic (yet) and I only became a Catholic recently so there was no desire on my part for separate education. I am glad he is in his school but it would not have to have a faith basis for me to be happy - just the fact that the school supports my son's extra needs is enough.

LeBFG
'OP - YANBU. I'm soooo annoyed at Catholics who think they can pick and mix their faith.'

So do elucidate us on how it would help the 'sex crazed blacks' (lovely expression of yours) if we westerners gave up contraception too? Would it be some kind of bizarre show of solidarity? We will wreck our health and the prosperity of our families to Show That We Care.

What we're seeing on this thread is that liberal atheists/agnostics cannot stand, absolutely cannot stand, the fact that some Catholics might also be, er, liberal. They can just about cope with us expressing orthodox prejudices because that places us neatly in the box marked 'freaks', but if we express any kind of readiness to adapt to modern life they can't do that.

I understand about the buildings and the funding. So what you are saying is that because the RC church contribute to the schools, RC children get priority on admissions. It's absolutely nothing to do with the faith, or what is taught- it's all about a special interest group buying their way into a "selective" school for its members. When we all know that any sort of selection tends to produce better results. So it is actually completely cynical. Whew. You learn something new every day!

The religion people say they belong to and even their attending church etc. Is often cultural not spiritual.

it's about belonging, about respecting their parents and seeing their friends. Its your political beliefs and the school you attend. These things run very deep at least as deep as faith for many people.

Add to this that we are all a bit afraid of illness and death, so religion and prayer provide an sort of safety net. If you go to church and pray you might go to heaven if you don't you might not. If heaven doesn't exist at least you took out insurance.

My Jewish friend is very lucky the Progressive movement gives her a Synagogue that practices pretty much what she believes, without feeling guilty.

I think Catholics have a problem because the Pope means their can be no progressive Catholicism without his say so.

Catholics are either hypocrites or join a different Christian church.
Given the way the secular parts of being a Catholic mix with the religious this is a step too far for many people.

Zombie, how a catholic practices their faith is a matter for their own conscience and the church. You have your opinion, that is your prerogative, but just because you believe that in order to be catholic one must be homophobic doesn't make it true.

In almost 40 years being in a catholic community, I have not met one, not one catholic who fully accepts all catholic dogma. Not even the little old dears of my youth who went to mass every day accepted all the church teachings.

You chose to leave the church. That was your personal decision, others have dealt with it differently. Just because you think those who stay are hypocrites, doesn't actually make it true.

Northey: "Because there are state funded C of E and Jewish and Sikh and Muslim and Quaker and Greek Orthodox ones, and to single out Catholic ones for banning would be grossly unfair."

Actually, the vast majority of state funded religious schools are either C of E or Catholic. This is for historical reasons - the schools were set up in the 19th century by the churches, and then brought into the state system after the 1944 Education Act. The churches still own the buildings, though operational costs are met by the state.

There is a tiny number of Muslim, Jewish, Hindu etc schools, and most of these were set up in the last 10 years as academies under the Labour government (Blair wanted to promote diversity in faith schools or some such nonsense).

Abra

The point is - the Pope says we SHOULD all give up contraception wherever we live. Sex is for procreation, not enjoyment. What would happen if we did? IMO : population and STI explosion. Opinion of my catholic neighbour : god provides for all his children.

I have a hard time putting catholicism and liberal beliefs in the same box TBH. Be protestant if you want a bit of faith and liberal thought - (though, frankly, and not to be purposely provocative, it is my very personal opinion that organised religion and liberal thinking really don't go together at all).

What holds faiths and churches together? That everyone signs up to some common beliefs - water turns into wine etc - deciding you're a bit liberal and don't really believe in some of the old fashioned bits means you are picking and choosing. Plus, if you only believe in some of the stuff your church preaches, what makes you think you're right? Where do you draw the line about the bits you dismiss? Can you really be a Catholic if you don't really think you're drinking the blood of Christ at communion?

Actually, the vast majority of state funded religious schools are either C of E or Catholic

I know this. I think I actually posted the very same thing yesterday. Doesn't change the fact that it would be discrimination to allow one religion to run faith schools and not others.

Well that would be true seeker if the only children who got admission to the school were Catholics (or C of E or any other faith). The fact is though that many schools have children in them who are not Catholic/C of E/other faith.

My son did not get a place in his Catholic school because he is Catholic - he isn't one yet. He got a space there because it had a space when he needed one and could meet his needs for ASD support well.

As I said in my previous post - I could not care less if faith schools went tomorrow but I suspect that lots of people would be complaining because their taxes would have to rise to meet the increased funding needed.

And surely the fact that church schools provided education for poor children when the state did not counts for something too. Whether it is still relevant is very open for debate.

My son's school is not the outstandig one in the area either so the selection thing you allude to doesn't always follow either.

LeBFG, I completely respect your personal opinion about the incompatibility of rganised religion and liberal thinking, but would just like to point out that it was the C of E which provided free education for the poor when the state didn't think it was necessary, and the Quakers who were the driving force behind the move to abolish slavery.

"Doesn't change the fact that it would be discrimination to allow one religion to run faith schools and not others."

Plenty of faith schools are happy to exercise religious discrimination when it comes to their admissions procedures though

I wouldn't have so much of a problem with faith schools if their admissions procedures were fair (ie not religiously discriminatory) and if they didn't have an enforced worship agenda. (I know this is complicated by the state's own 'broadly Christian worship' agenda).

What I mean, I suppose, is that if a church truly wanted to serve its community it would welcome one and all, and not ex

oops posted too soon

...and not expect everyone to subscribe to their brand of worship.

Then it wouldn't be a faith school.

So to be a faith school is to be by definition discriminatory and unfair?

I think the quakers have a long history of being pretty liberal. They are one of the religious grousp actively campaigning to be allowed to conduct gay marriages.

All schools discriminate in their selection of who can and any go there. Some do it by geography. Some do it by sibling presence. Some throw faith into the mix as well.