To think some Catholics don't understand their own faith

[zombiegames]

Okay I admit a thread about a couple of other threads.

I was brought up Catholic, but am not one now - but I do understand how the way you are brought up as a Catholic gets under your skin. But it does make me angry that other people here who say they are catholics, appear to have so little understanding of their own faith.

The pope is not just someone whose opinion you can dismiss if you are a catholic. He is christs representative on earth and he is infallible - that means he can't be wrong. This is an absolute key part of the one true faith. It is not a side belief that can be conveniently ignored.

So when the pope says for example that gay marriage or using condoms is wrong, that is a belief of the catholic faith and can't just be dismissed. If you say this is wrong, you are saying that the pope is not infallible and thus you are questioning an absolute key part of catholicism.

Why does this anger me? Because a lot of people who are not and have never been catholics don't really understand catholicism as can be seen on here when non catholic parents who send dcs to catholic schools froth on here about what their dcs are being taught. Posters who post about being catholic and non homophobic, are misrepresenting catholicism to those who don't understand it. If the pope says something, then that is part of the catholic faith and is what catholics should believe.

And sorry I probably ABU as I know this is a bit of a rant, even though it is true.

If we lobbied the vatican and had ironing declared a cardinal sin, would it help you engage more with the faith kayano I'd be fecking garunteed a place in heaven if that was the case (don't own a functioning ironing board) As it stands, i reckon ive a fair bit of contrition to act out

'cherry picking' indicates a level of hypocrisy I would have thought. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Because it is not following the faith, it. Is just wearing the title while doing whatever you want.

Like ironing

By Jove, i think shes got it

Hidden you are right but I don't know if that will be enough or if I will get another 'but WHY?'

I come from a long line of dissenting Catholics. My family would probably freak if I fully accepted church teachings.

Faith IS about debate and feeling. I don't agree with the church over lots of things but I am still Catholic. I can't explain that but I can definitely say I am not homophobic, my best friend is gay and I love him and his partner to bits.

I still pitch up for Mass every Sunday though and I have yet to hear a priest condemn gay relationships.

And surely people should not be sheep, surely they should be able to say to the church "I don't agree with your teaching on this"? Nobody should just blindly accept a church's teachings without thinking about their application.

The Catholic agencies such as CAFOD do amazing work all over the world. Our local Catholic children's society run a fabulous support group for children who have suffered bereavement and nor does a child have to be Catholic to attend. It's freely run, religion free (unless children ask and then a variety of belief systems are discussed to help kids make sense of it all) and lots of local groups run for children.

There is plenty of good stuff in the Catholic church and plenty of good people who have better things to do with their time then study every publication from Rome about sex, gay relationships or contraception. Change only happens from within and with enough people saying "the church is wrong on this issue".

Maybe that does make me "a shit Catholic" but I am "a shit Catholic" with a conscience and a humane nature.

And judging by some comments made to me privately by our Priest he is "a shit Catholic" too . Nobody tell the Bishop though.

excellent post CodandChops - you have said everything i was trying, and clearly failing, to say

What about if I say that there are central bits of faith, and less important bits of religious chaff? I think we differ on what counts as central. I don't think the homophobic anti-women stuff is central. Lots of catholics i know also don't think ot is central. Some people do. Who is really to say whether it is central or not?

cod - I don't think anybody on thsi thraed si saying that the catholic church doesn't do good work and have some good teachings. Condemning part of the faith is not condemning the whole of catholicism imo. The priest who visited my gran at home for many months every week was brilliant and made a real difference to her last months for example. But that also doesn't mean that because I have seen the good personally that I am not going to ctiticise the imo bad bits.

I agree Cod.

Actually my last post was a bit heavy going

Yes there are some good points on this thread and much to think about.

I have recently returned to the Catholic church after having been baptised Catholic at a young age, but not actually brought up as one. I have found it to be remarkably tolerant and open minded. It has had to face some very uncomfortable truths about itself of late and I think that we've all had those experiences in our own lives from time to time. Catholics are free to examine their own consciences just as everyone else is and the church seems to be joining them on this difficult journey. Perhaps we will see change for the better

Really good post, cod&chips.

It seems like there's an awful lot of us tolerant Catholics about misrepresenting the Catholic majority. Has it occurred to you that we ARE the majority? The average Catholic on the street as a whole is much more tolerant than YOU would lead us to believe. I really can't understand why you would use up so much energy being angry/annoyed at what someone else believes. Why does it affect you so much?

I don't think the homophobic stuff is a central tent of faith. But I think the lobbying and the way the church has spoken out publically in the UK about gay issues makes it appear to many outside as a central tenet of the faith. And I think the church has only itself to blame for this.

I actually do think women being lesser is a central tenet of faith and is pretty core the the catholic church. But i know you won't agree with me on that one.

That's just it Zombie. Just because we recognize the good bits, doesn't mean we don't criticize the bad bits. The only difference is that some of us do it from within the church.

Okay we are not going to agree on this and I really need to go to bed. Night.

It's a small start, zombie, but girls are allowed to act as altar servers now. I'd love to think that that was a step towards having female priests. Probably isn't, mind. But I can dream.

I think that we will see female priests and our progress in this matter will probably be the same as the CofE in that it will begin in the West. We just don't have enough blokes taking Holy Orders here.

At the retreat centre, the nuns are treated with the same respect that the priest and deacon are. They have different roles, but there's no sense of any superiority just because the priest conducts the services and the deacon assists. They believe that they are there to serve God and others in their respective roles. It's a very different perspective from that which we, in our society, have. It's sometimes difficult to understand.

There was an article a while ago in which a commentator was concerned that the presence of female altar servers was putting off boys from joining. And that this would have a knock on effect of fewer vocations to the priesthood (because of the smaller pool of altar boys who might grow up to take holy orders). His idea was to ban female altar servers. Mine would be to ask the girls if they fancied holy orders instead. :)

Well tell me when the pope wasn't then? It is a central part of catholicism

When it is not matters of faith. Hence you have to believe in transubstanciation, but contraception is a not a matter of faith, the church doesn't like it but it is up to the individual.

BettyGrable I'm afraid if you think those of us who identify as culturally Catholic but do not accept the teaching of the church are hypocrites, then you don't understand the meaning of the word hypocrite. A hypocrite is someone who preaches one thing and practices another. So in this context, it would be someone who says they oppose gay marriage, whilst being married to a person of the same sex themself. Or someone who says everyone should accept RC church teaching without question and not develop their own conscience, whilst doing just that. You need to think of another insult for those of us who have dared not to conform to the stereotypes in your head.

Kayano I'm a shit Catholic, and I don't give a fuck whether you or anyone else likes it or not. Neither I nor any other irreligious cultural Catholic needs your approval to continue identifying ourselves with the community in which we were raised and remain. If ironing was a culture that you had been raised within, your desire to refer to yourself as an ironer despite not ironing would actually make some sense.

umm yes the pope is infalliable because he is human, and humans are infalliable.