...to think all the good men against sexual violence should make a big noise!

[Berts]

I know this probably isn't entirely fair, and loads of people will now come on and cheer my heart with all their examples of men campaigning against rape and sexual violence, but it really does seem like an issue dominated by women and female-led organisations.

AIBU to ask all those good men (and I know you're out there) who are horrified by sexual violence and the awful treatment of victims in our society to join in the debates, the arguments, the discussions? It's not a 'women's issue'!

Us girls may 'hold up half the sky', but we can't do without you, the other half. Sexual violence distorts the whole of society and fucks up the natural dynamic between men and women. So condemn it wherever you see it reported! Get on Twitter and slag off Connor Brown! Campaign for better sentencing and the busting of rape myths! Stand up with us!

So what though, MB? Isn't that a bit like that tiresome argument "well why should men do X when there are still women who don't do it?" - it's a let off for men until ALL women agree to behave the same way (which obvs will never happen).

Where and how would you like to see men speaking out ?

In public - with colleagues, in the pub, on forums, with friends, in response to media (e.g. on news websites, or making complaints about awful coverage etc), in letters to their MPs, and using their positions of power (not all men obvs) in their work etc.

Everywhere you can.

Hear victim blaming? Challenge it.
See someone harrasing a woman? Challenge it.
Suspect a friend is being abused? Let them know that you're there to listen
Someone tells you they've been abused/raped/assaulted? Believe them
Hear rape jokes? Challenge them
Hear slut-shaming? Challenge it.

and ditto to Elephant's suggestions.

Hear victim blaming? Challenge it.
See someone harrasing a woman? Challenge it.
Suspect a friend is being abused? Let them know that you're there to listen
Someone tells you they've been abused/raped/assaulted? Believe them
Hear rape jokes? Challenge them
Hear slut-shaming? Challenge it

I either do this already in some in some cases or I don't come across it.

I do find some of this a bit patronizing tbh. Because you're assuming, for example that I'd need a nudge to offer support to a friend who's being abuse or ignore a woman being harrased.

In public - with colleagues, in the pub, on forums, with friends

But what do you mean ? That I should start conversations in pubs and at work about DV and rape ?

How about just not derailing discussions that women are trying to have about male violence as a really easy peasy place to start?

It seems that even that is often too much to ask.

I've seen harassment ignored so many times. So many.

In fact, just three weeks ago, I was being harassed by two male colleagues. People could see it happening. NO ONE spoke out. Five years ago, I was groped by a customer in a pub where I worked. NO ONE spoke out. ALL of my colleagues suspected I was being abused by my xP. NO ONE spoke out. In fact, we lived over the security lodge, who regularly heard my screams as my ex attacked me. Not once did anyone offer help.

Personally, I think the "but I care terribly about starving children in Africa/ Global warming/ big business corruption - I can't be expected to tackle everything" is a complete cop-out. Yes, well done for what ever campaigning work you do about issues that in all likelihood don't have a day to day impact on your daily life, but misogynistic attitudes do have a daily impact on the lives of your wife/girlfriend/sister/mother/daughter.

These women have a 1 in 4 chance of being raped or sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Something that affects the lives of all women affects the lives of every man who shares his life with a woman. It shapes her perception of self and her learnt behaviour, including her interaction with every man in her life.

Too many men see society's attitudes to women as something that only effects women, and not something that is a problem for men. The latter is almost certainly true: men benefit from this, it doesn't cause them any problems. Unless, of course, you happen to see it as a problem that women do not have a position and identity that is truly equal to that which every man has. That it is a problem that men go further at work not due to merit but due to misogyny. That it is a problem, that no matter how fairly and equally you treat your partner or daughter, her behaviour and attitude to you will be tainted by messages that she has received from society as a whole.

If you don't have a problem with these things, fine, that is your lookout. If you do have a problem with it, why aren't you doing anything about it?

^MrGin Wed 25-Apr-12 12:36:32
In public - with colleagues, in the pub, on forums, with friends

But what do you mean ? That I should start conversations in pubs and at work about DV and rape ?^

• Yes. Why not?

*How about just not derailing discussions that women are trying to have about male violence as a really easy peasy place to start?

It seems that even that is often too much to ask*

I'm off then. Was actually trying to understand the issues.

Oh no did someone overload the hypersensitive buckaroo-mechanism of your willingness to engage on this subject? There was nothing in beachcomber's post to suggest it was directed at you.

But it always happens, MrGin. One way or another, these discussions always get derailed.

As far as I'm concerned men coming on and going, "alright then, how shall I do it?" (and then actually going and doing it) was in the spirit of the thread. Others may disagree.

Didn't take much to reduce your dedication to the issue to taking the hump MrGin.

What's always obvious on these threads is the theme of invisible privilege. Yet history tells us that injustice against a group of people is only ever overturned when those that are privileged by the injustice join in the fight.

The fact is that in a patriarchical society, things change when men speak. We can wish it wasn't so, but we have to work within the constraints of the society we are in until patriarchy is dissembled.

So yes, men do have a greater responsibility to condemn other men's sexual violence towards women, just as any privileged group has a duty to acknowledge their advantages and campaign against those who suffer as a result.

MrGin, you say you are already doing all the things suggested above to challenge bad attitudes to women. In that case, hurrah! You are a sterling person! You are one of the examples I mentioned in my OP of men who are already brilliant!

So why do you feel this post is having a go at you?

Frothy Dragon, what a great link. I've seen similar posts from men condemning Ched Evans' and Connor Brown's actions on other football sites. Brilliant, isn't it? Sometimes it can feel like most men are saying nothing about it, but maybe I just don't visit enough sports sites

For those who didn't see it, here.

yes the BBC footie comment list is somethnig I come across quite a lot - not seen anything re Ched Evans, but usually there's lots of supportive comment re other issues. One prob though is that comments are regulated/moderated so the unpleasant ones will be deleted for breaking house rules.

Here are some other suggestions of what men could do, apart from all the ones that have already been made (speak up in daily life and on social media, sign up for the White Ribbon campaign, etc).

• If you support a football club, contact them and the FA to see if any of them will come out and make a firm statement condemning players who treat women like meat;
• Donate to Rape Crisis
• Visit the White Ribbon UK page of suggestions for how you can help
• Complain to the Daily Mail about their relentless focus on the tiny minority of false claims, which distorts the perception of all rape claims.
• I now wanted to say 'Post this funny yet thought-provoking video on your FB page', but I can't find the video I mean. If anyone can find the excellent video that was doing the rounds a while ago of 'Rape Prevention Tips' where guys lined up to explain tips along the lines of 'If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don't rape her' - please post the link here.
• 'Like' this page on FB for Men Can Stop Rape

Really good list, Berts.

There are so many people I would like to send this thread to, but I fear they would recognise this writing style. Wonder if there's a good website with suggestions like yours below on?

I think the WhiteRibbon UK pages of suggestions cover most of it

This thread would have been much better targetted on this site if it was posted in Dadsnet. I say that as it implores male action, not female action. Obv DN is a bit of a desert at times, well mostly. Yet this is the most active on-line site for parents in the UK, half of which are men.

Having said that, I am a bit surprised that so many fathers on this thread have become so defensive, when being exhorted to 'speak out' against sexual violence. We, collectively have responded with 'well the women aren't doing it'. Or 'I am a good role model at home'. Or 'well how do you wish us to do it?' (FFS sake think for ourselves!)
And MB, I am a bit surprised and a bit disappointed to read that you posted:

"I don't think saying it on a blog/forum so a load of women come and praise me for speaking out does much good either. It's nice for the ego and all but not much practical use.

Perhaps I'm just too jaded, old and realistic."

No, just about on every count. A part of that was relevant to me, I think, re the stuff I posted about why men should speak out more than women, and so be 'praised' ( and believe me I seem to have fucked off most of the FWR regulars so ego is feck all to do with it).

More importantly is the passivity that your posts carry. You are never 'too old' for this stuff, and being 'realistic' is a bit of a cop-out tbh.

More broadly, as men we are posting, and benfitting from, a largely female chamber. Wearing our ears, and eyes, about what is being said is a minimum.

< men never have a joust on this site!>

I am not being 'holier than thou'. At all. Just surprised at the resistance, at any invitation, to accepting basic stuff from my fellow Dadsnetters.