AIBU to really hate the term "birth rape"

[laumiere]

It's from this story where a woman is allegedly put under a GA under her will and given an emergency C section. All very unpleasant (although it does throw up the question as to how much we really expect to control a process which at a basic level is still capable of killing us and our babies) but commentators are starting to term it 'birth rape'. As a rape survivor and someone who has supported rape victims as part of my job I am so sick of this term being overused and devalued! (This goes double for the moronic "draping" on FaceBook).

RE mental Illness.

You cannot enforce treatment for a physical condition upon somebody who is mentally ill or who has been sectioned under the MHA. You can only enforce psychiatric treatment when a person is under a section.

The amount of medical staff who confuse the two is unbelievable. I have had many interesting 'discussion's with medical staff requesting that I 'compel' a client of mine to have physical treatment against their will, believing that the MHA is an 'umbrella' clause for all treatment.

Physical treatment can only go ahead to save a life.

Sorry, that last sentence should end

" without consent".

Yes, absolutely agree, Edless. The theme on this thread that doctors are gods to be submitted to is bizarre. A woman questioning her treatment doesn't automatically mean that they're risking their baby while the doctor can only always be right.

If you read the NICE thread you'll see the opposite in fact. Women questioning medical professionals because they're concerned that they're not getting the best advice, treatment and outcomes for both them and their child.

I don't know where this vitriol towards women, by women, come from. Women and babies health is intertwined, not mutually exclusive.

I havent read most of the replys , but i actaully understand what people mean when they refer to birth rape , because thats exactly what it feels like .

I had a attempted manual removal of the placenta with no aneasthetic . At one point the docter had half his arm up inside me and several nurses held my legs apart with others looking on . I literally begged him to stop and the pain was indescribable .

Theres not a single day i dont think about it . A man , ( who in this situation happened to be a docter ) sexually assaulted me . Disgusting .

You were not sexually assaulted

Diggs, I can 100% understand how you'd feel this way, and am so sorry that happened. The fact those people were in a perceived position of trust only makes it worse.

I had A doctor try to remove my placenta, I also had a mw sat on my bed as they rushed me through the hospital with her hand inside my womb holding the cord back.

Both were painful and traumatic but nothing like being sexually assaulted

My goodness Diggs, what you describe is absolutely awful but it's not a sexual assault. Just because your vagina was involved doesn't make it a sexual assault.

Did you have any post birth counselling? Do you think it might help to have some now?

FFS, can people not see the intent of LeQ's post? I'm sure she doesn't think it would actually be reasonable for a doctor to call a patient a muppet.

I read that the point she was validly making was that these doctors must ocassionally come across women who are refusing treatment in a situation that means life or death for a baby.

And what happens then?

Some times there is no 'gentle' way for these things to be done

Ugh, FGS, no one is saying that all invasive procedures are assault, it obviously depends on the circumstances. The same as all sex is not rape.

Exactly bejeezus

I had an obstetrics registrar examine me to diagnose a third degree tear. She also decided to remove a clot from my cervix while she was up there I nearly shit through the ceiling with the pain, but it wasn't a sexual assault.

I think this is an unhelpful semantic discussion.

This woman had an absolutely horrific experience. She chose to compare her feelings of other humans disregarding her own agency to rape. It's a metaphor. I think it's a legitimate one.

It's not edifying when film stars compare being photographed to being raped but they are, by nature, drama queens. This woman is trying to convey the depths of her horror at what happened. My personal approach would be to thank the Lord both I and my child were still alive but she is obviously very tortured by what happened and needs to explore how she feels. What could be more normal? And wouldn't it be nice if other women could listen open-heartedly rather than get into a competitive ownership of the rape word.

As for calling her a silly cow...good Lord. Is it any reason women struggle to have their voices heard when other women respond like that to feelings that we should all be able to understand even if we wouldn't express them in quite the same way.

Ugh, FGS I would say nearly no invasive procedures are assault and is more often than not perception

A patient crying out in pain, is not a reason for a doctor to stop a procedure IMO

I do think there is too much romanticising of birth and I do agree with the OP's question of how much we can ever control a potentially life-threatening process. But birth is not presented like that these days - we are encourage to have birth plans (this woman mentions hers) and to treat it like a lifestyle choice that we can get through with hypnobirthing and a bit of will power. But when it's visceral, like this, and two people's lives are in danger, all that falls away.

Perhaps the woman writing about rape was deluded about what birth should be, hence her devastation. But she is entitled to describe it however she felt it.

cervixwithasmile I fully agree with your take on this.

Haven't read all replies and although agree with op that having an emcs is not the same as being raped I also know that at times during my horrendous four day labour where I felt assaulted. At one point they (the drs) attempted to take a blood sample from the top of my dds head when she was still inside me and I was about 4ch dilated, the pain was unbelievable and I was screaming for them to stop

Not rape but I felt assaulted and am still traumatised 6yrs on.

Margo you could flip your arguement round and say it is not helpful or supportive or understanding of women towards women who have suffered rape or sexual assualt, to use the terms in this way

It makes me sick tbh

I don't really know any women who haven't suffered a sexual assault at some point in their lives so I think given that most of us know a bit about what it feels like, I just think we could be sympathetic not hostile. She is not the enemy here.

I just don't like the hostility to this woman for using a word in all honesty to describe how she felt. I do agree that most medical interventions are not helpfully described as sexual assault but women do have to undergo procedures which can strip them of every last shred of dignity. And because they are also carriers of other humans they can feel like nothing more than vessels, stripped of their own agency. So I can fully understand how one might use this word although I would not do so myself.

margo what you say at 2137 is spot on.

surely it depends on the procedure being carried out and why? if they explain to you what they are doing and why and say i am very sorry but it has to be done is the only way etc. but in most situations there are pain relief option, someone having manual removal of placenta etc should at least be offered gas and air if not epidural, anaesthetic, obviously if they are bleeding out and at risk of death then the dr needs to act quickly and there may not be time for pain relief but generally there is and if a patient is saying STOP then yes that should be listened to, in al my births i have had to have ny waters broken, i see to have tough membranes and it took 3 different people various attempts with a LOT of rummaging around and being quite rough to break then with no5, they said to me if you want us to stop we will.

ditto ds1 dislocated his elbow and it needed to be put back in, they made it quite clear that it would hurt and they were aplogetic but explained if he could bare it it would then be over and done with.

so a dr saying this is going to hurt i will try and do it quickly and i apologise is one thing but ignoring someone who is saying STOP, most drs would stop unless its a life and death situation and sort some pain relief, or at least give the patient a chance to calm down and steel themselves for it to be tried again etc.

btw the woman linked to in the op did NOT call it birth rape!! others commenting on her experience did.

But giving birth is viscéral and its not dignified

It's ironic that those with very 'natural' birth plans seem least willing to accept this

yes I agree with you bejeezus. She sounded as though she'd been sold a vision of it that was just unrealistic. My friend who had hypnobirthing lessons told me she felt afterwards that she felt she'd been hoodwinked by the hypnobirth lady (she ended up with EMCS).

I've nothing against hypnobirthing, by the way, but perhaps the core problem is similar. When the reality is so utterly different to the way you've planned it and when all the talk about birth plans and breathing through the pain is just a distant memory because both of your lives are in danger - you feel lied to, betrayed, cheated, victimised. Hence the language used.

more expert than their GP - easy Gps aren't specialists.

I'm intrigued bejeezus - is an unconsented sweep not an assault?

also: if two doctors disagree: how do you know which is right?
if you are armed with current clinical guidelines, and the HCP talking is giving advice contradicting them - are the guidelines wrong just because they are in your hand?

I have heard several HCPs say 'you are the expert in your/ your childs care' simply because they know and recognise HCps don't have the time to do all the research relevant to an individual case - were those HCPs wrong?