To feel a bit miffed about "I can't shake hands with women for religious reasons"

[Hopefullyrecovering]

Which is what was said to me today, in a work context.

I have never heard of this before and googled it and apparently it is true that certain very orthodox forms of religion prohibit men shaking women's hands.

So I am torn between my inner liberal need for religious toleration, and thinking it's a damnfool sort of religion that prohibits a man from shaking a woman's hand and not just a little bit sexist too.

So, AIBU to feel miffed?

Op- YANBU. Agree with Downand and others who say he shouldn't shake anybody's hand if he doesn't want to be seen as sexist and offensive.

Well, he has a right not to shake your hand, and you have the right to be offended that he won't shake your hand. The religion he belongs to says it's wrong to shake hands with a person of the opposite sex; the culture you belong to says it's rude not to shake a proffered hand. So I think it's up to him if he wants to follow his religious practices, but he will have to accept that other people will judge him accordingly. Essentially he's expecting you to make a concession to his religion, but he won't make a concession to your culture.

Well put Hackman.

I think when you have very strong religious taboos, you should accept that there are certain jobs which come with expectations of a certain type of behaviour, and that you cannot expect to take one of those jobs and eschew the behaviour without explanation. If a business expects you to shake hands to conclude a deal or greet a client, then that may not be the job for you, any more than a devout pro-lifer should expect to be able to hold down a job in an abortion clinic or a Quaker to work in an arms factory. If refusing to shake hands with certain clients but not with others is likely to lose your firm a contract, then they would be wise not to employ you.

Of course, there could be plenty of ways to deal with this particular issue without giving offence- an explanation, as louschmoo suggests, or a general avoidance of handshakes with both sexes (followed by an explanation). Surely there is nothing that says that Muslims have to shake hands with members of the same sex?

But in any case the onus would be on the person who is breaking against the prevalent cultural norm of that company. The company would need to make it clear to the employee that he has to come up with a strategy that ensures that female clients and colleagues do not feel discriminated against.

The idea of a woman with perfectly normal, god-given hair being expected to shave it off and replace it with a wig is, frankly, ridiculous and I don't know how anybody could defend such a practice.
Why do women go along with these things? Seriously, why?

nailak - re " is that wigs and fake hair are haram?"

I can't say what passes for thought in the brains of these people, but they obviously don't think it's haram to cover their own hair with wigs and go out in them. Personally, I think it is a case of stupidity, for anyone with half a brain should understand that if you are supposed to cover your hair because it is part of your feminine beauty, then a wig is also hair on your head, hence part of your feminine beauty and shouldn't be worn outside. I mean, it is not like most men could tell between natural hair and wigs.

It isn't that women are inferior though, it is that men and women who are not related should not touch. Not that women are dirty and men can't touch them.

Not always. I offered a handshake once and after a pause, got a shake with his left hand. I only wish I'd understood what that meant at the time, so I could have reacted accordingly...

kirsty - re "I know many muslims of North African origin. Amongst them not shaking hands with women as far as I can see is very rare... It seems from this thread to be much more common in other Islamic countries, is that the case ? Is it more a national cultural norm specific to certain countries than a blanket muslim rule ? Or are the North African muslims I know an exception ?"

It is NOT a blanket Muslim rule. It is only a minority of fundamentalist Muslims who refuse to touch a person of the opposite sex at all, including handshakes.

My ex-colleague who wouldn't shake hands with women said that there was a religious rule that he couldn't touch a woman he wasn't related to, and a secular one that he had to treat men and women equally at work, and it was up to him to deal with the two rules rather than pretending either of them didn't apply (or that the equality rule didn't apply to him because of his religion). As I say, he dealt with it by never shaking hands with anyone.

He was very impressive. The only really strict "fundamentalist" religious person who I've ever met who I really respected and admired (even though he did wind me up unmercifully about the Church of England not being a "proper" religion).

The only three religions for him would probably be Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - the Abrahamic religions

Surely you knew before that Church of England is not a religion but a... Church

When i worked recruiting trainee nurses we would often have this issue. Students would start the course and then say they could only touch their own gender, so could they not work with all patients. Some would choose child nursing and then complain that some of the male 'children' were not children (ie 16yo).

When we told them that was the course/job take it or leave it, many felt that allowances should be made for their faith. But we simply couldn't allow that. If you can't do the job (for whatever reason) you shouldn't expect others to bend for you.

Everything had been explained to them before they applied, at interview and at induction. But they still said nothing until going on the wards. They thought once they were there we wouldn't be able to enforce it/say no to them. Many felt very hard done by and couldn't understand why 'but it's my religion' wasn't satisfactory to amend the rules.

Similarly when i worked in East London helping grads find employment, there were ones which never got past interview - because of the refusal to shake hands. Many had studied business and part of the roles would have been meeting clients, so shaking hands would have been essential.

Yes, of course I know, Cote (as did he - he reckoned it was a rather pathetic and inadequate manifestation of Christianity, while freely admitting he didn't know anything about it. He couldn't get his head round the lack of set "rules" - he would have coped fine if I'd been a Baptist or something.)

Spuddy, in medical cases it is obviously allowed to interact, I could see why when practicing or training on non sick people in role plays etc they may not want to touch, but not why they wouldn't in actual medical situations. Even the first generation of Muslims had women who acted as nurses on the battle field and is well documented.

In this situation I feel you were right not to bend rules as on a stretched ward it wouldn't be practical, what did they think they were going to send patients home for being male?

Why on earth would anyone consider working in a hospital if they cannot/will not treat members of the opposite sex?

Can you seriously imagine the senario of say a car crash victim, on death's door and the professional saying "Oh, sorry I can't touch this person..wrong sex....next patient now please."

I agree with that Tbh is silly.

I followed the link given by BillyBollyBandy Sat 14-Apr-12 00:06:34 to find what the rationale behind the no-physical-contact-with-the-opposite-sex was. Wow. Just - wow.

And I quote : ^"The reason is a rather complex, even Freudian rationale. It is felt that touching a person of the opposite gender is essentially a sexual act, or at least the precursor of a sexual act. While it is true that most handshakes between men and women do not lead to sexual relations and are not even contemplated, sexual relations always begin with touching. It is also true that a handshake does communicate feelings albeit on a superficial level."

So, the person who doesn't want to shake my hand, at some level, thinks that I am either so wanton or so enamoured with them (now THAT's vanity!) that I will rip off my/their clothes on the spot; or that they themselves are so weak that touching me will cause them to abandon all morals and propriety? Really?

And I'm supposed to respect that belief? Sorry, but that 'rationale' insulst both the believer and the innocent bystander.

Plus, I'd imagine all sexual relations always begin with being in the same room/looking at each other. Should believers isolate themselves alone in rooms and cover their eyes lest they lustfully fall on someone of the opposite sex?

I think the OP needs some training.

I have worked in various Asian cultures and would never presume I could touch anyone. I've learnt how to bow and accept a business card etc...

I never offer my hand to Muslim men as I don't want to embarrass them as they refuse my handshake.

Different cultures are fascinating, so google them and maybe have an eye opening experience - and don't take someone else's religion so personally.

It's a global world innit?

Perhaps the other party needs trained that for the wider society in which he lives, the refusal to shake a proffered hand is considered a deliberate insult?

Not if it is politely explained it isn't.

@totallypearshaped. Hmm. It's a bit different from the OP's situation because you were in Asia. (At least, that's how I read your comment, maybe I'm wrong). Obviously, when abroad one should make some effort to fit in with the host culture, with the proviso that they should also be understnading when their norms are too far outside of your comfort zone for you to be able to follow. But the converse is also true: it is reasonable to expect immigrants and minorities here to make an effort to adapt to the host culture, whilst remaining aware that some things will be outside their comfort zone and making allowances. The whole debate here is: where do you put the cursor? I think the handshake thing is probably on the borderline - it can be OK if diplomatically handled but I think it's reasonable to expect the person to be aware that it could cause offense and he or she is responsible for handling the situation with tact so it doesn't.

Doesn't Hinduism also have very strong taboos on touching, at least for the higher castes ?

PS It's a bit of a minefield because there are Muslim men from different national traditions who will be offended if you don't shake their hand, apparently...

soupdragon i disagree, even if some things are politely explained they are still an insult. I remember being politely explained to that i wasn't allowed in a Jain centre if i was menstruating. I was still insulted. All the business managers who I politely explained to that their interns possibly wouldn't shake hands were insulted, and declined any which wouldn't.

Plus, I'd imagine all sexual relations always begin with being in the same room/looking at each other. Should believers isolate themselves alone in rooms and cover their eyes lest they lustfully fall on someone of the opposite sex?

believers are supposed to lower their gaze and not check out women.
Surely sexual relations starts with being attracted to someone, flirting with them, extra long touches, glances etc. you dont just see someone and then jump in to bed with them, normally there is a process of falling in lust/love, and these rules are suppossed to prevent this process of falling in love and impure thoughts. and impure thoughts are not neccessarily "i want to take her on the desk right now" but generally checking out a woman would be considered impure and disrespectful.

If you feel insulted by someone's polite and apologetic explanation then that is your problem, not theirs.

"All the business managers who I politely explained to that their interns possibly wouldn't shake hands were insulted, and declined any which wouldn't."

Well, that means they are declining them on the basis of their religion. [shrug] Again, that says more about the managers than it does about the interns.