To feel a bit miffed about "I can't shake hands with women for religious reasons"

[Hopefullyrecovering]

Which is what was said to me today, in a work context.

I have never heard of this before and googled it and apparently it is true that certain very orthodox forms of religion prohibit men shaking women's hands.

So I am torn between my inner liberal need for religious toleration, and thinking it's a damnfool sort of religion that prohibits a man from shaking a woman's hand and not just a little bit sexist too.

So, AIBU to feel miffed?

thebody I am sure you are a nice person too but I for one don't understand your aggressive stance on all religions. You are rude too! I do not believe that men will be driven wild by my handshake any more than I believe that a woman dressed for a 'night out' is asking to be raped!

I find such suggestions vile and preposterous.

But what I am finding is that you are not wanting to understand, you just want to argue. You are free to do what you like, but do not try to dictate to me how to live my life in the free society that we live in.

These are MY beliefs, MY values and MY rights. So if I choose not to shake hands, I ensure that I apologise too for any offence/embarrassment caused. I do not expect you to understand as clearly you do not want to understand.

You say that all religions hate women, well that is your opinion and based on what you see around you rather than the actual teachings of each religion.

We do not need your approval, we try to make you understand and we do not like to cause upset, but sometimes it feels that people just want to find a reason to be upset and despite explanations still choose to be blind to the world around them.

This is just the problem - it is not YOUR RIGHT or anyone else's to act in a discriminatory way to anyone just because of their sex. Says the laws of the
UK. Religious beliefs should never be able to over-ride this.

Just another example of religious privilege - that it is ok to discriminate because of religious beliefs.

This is just the problem - it is not YOUR RIGHT or anyone else's to act in a discriminatory way to anyone just because of their sex. Says the laws of the
UK.

The law of the UK and across the EU says that it is a Human Right to carry out your chosen religion and the Sexual Discrimination Act allows exclusions.

So this is covered under the law, in the law against indirect discrimination, also.

Pointless arguing about it on those terms, that will never be changed, because all religion would have to be banned, not just some and that would be unworkable.

Just another example of religious privilege - that it is ok to discriminate because of religious beliefs.

Only in personal ways, such as touching and personal care, not when providing services/goods, so not a big issue that will ruin lives.

If we removed the right not to discriminate on gender then across social care, women would have male carers etc, which at present is leglislated against, they have the right to choose female staff.

I can't see what the problem is here. If he said it softly and sincerely, then everything is OK.

My DS had to work on Good Friday and I told him to tell his work tht he is Catholic and wants to go to Mass on Good Friday. (Which is 100% true)

DS said "You can't do that in the workplace Mum"

It doesn't happen in my workplace because there is only the Boss and myself and we rub along fine.

For all those who argue that muslims/jewish not shaking hands with opposite sex is sexist - next time ask your male friends/colleagues/family members to kiss other men on the cheeks as a greeting, just as they do with the females, then lets talk about discriminating on grounds of sex!

Well said defuse!
OP being unreasonable.

I only have intimate relations with men.

It is most definitely discrimination on grounds of sex.

But it's my body and I decide who touches it and how.

For the record, I do not believe that a handshake is a sexual act. Not in my neck of the woods. So what's with all this 'touching my body' stuff? A handshake is a handshake. Not a precursor to sex on the boardroom table.

My French cousins greet friends with kisses on both cheeks all the time!

Defuse - good post & i agree with your view.
OP - YABU - if a man doesn't want to shake your hand for religious reasons then try to understand & accept it.

He still did business with you so surely that's what counts most??

A quick question for the Muslims on this thread, someting I just thought of and am intrigued by.

I live in France and know many muslims of North African origin. Amongst them not shaking hands with women as far as I can see is very rare - the only time I've come across it the person involved was a very extreme fundamentalist (I came across him whilst doing prison work). (This is just anecdotal based on the people I know). It seems from this thread to be much more common in other Islamic countries, is that the case ? Is it more a national cultural norm specific to certain countries than a blanket muslim rule ? Or are the North African muslims I know an exception ?

"If we removed the right not to discriminate on gender then across social care, women would have male carers etc, which at present is leglislated against, they have the right to choose female staff"

Out of interest, do men have the right to choose male staff?

And, back on topic, all those who are up in arms about this being sexual discrimination do realise that the man simply said he couldn't shake hands with the OP don't you? He didn't refuse to work with her or speak to her.

Kirsty - i don't know the answer to your question but i've met & know a lot of Sunni & Shia Muslims (Drs at work, patients, friends, ex-boyfriends) from Arabic, African, Turkish, Filippino, Pakistani, Afghan (Pashtun) & Persian immigrants / students / migrant workers; to British Muslims from various national / tribal backgrounds: - including those who arrived here as immigrant children, to 3rd & 4th generation Muslims whose families have lived in Britain for up to 70 years...
The one thing that they all have in common is that each Muslim differs from others (even of the same national / tribal group) in their religious beliefs & culture, attitudes, & level of adherence to their religion & culture.

Same as Jews, same as Christians.
People from the same families, who worship in the same Mosque, Church, Synagogue (or who don't bother going) - can hold a wide variety of attitudes; including: regarding physical contact...
One thing for definite is that when people of any religion are very ill & / or very old - they ALL like to hold hands with HCAs & Nurses as a comfort in difficult times.. :-)

My lovely midwife refused to shake my husbands hand after the birth of our ds2 for religious reasons.

I got nice hug though

I dont really have an issue with it tbh.

I did read an interesting thing on the "women are unclean whilst menstruating". Given the time limitations also in place, a woman will next be able to have sex when she is approaching her most fertile time of the month. The restrictions mean she and her husband should just about be gagging for it, thereby ensuring that the tribe continues.

It may be that the tradition of non-touching also arose in Islam for similar reasons, but has, in the midst of time and the appearance of misogynistic tendencies as 'tradition' rather than religious reason, become something it was never intended to be.

defuse Sun 15-Apr-12 01:20:54
For all those who argue that muslims/jewish not shaking hands with opposite sex is sexist - next time ask your male friends/colleagues/family members to kiss other men on the cheeks as a greeting, just as they do with the females, then lets talk about discriminating on grounds of sex!

This is tenuous. If a male colleague kissed me instead of shaking my hand I would assume he wanted the sack!!

Its a shame that you felt so awkward and uncomfortable about it that it worries you enough to post weeks later. I wouldn't have expected that reaction.

I have only ever told one man once that I couldn't shake hands with him, I felt really embarassed having to say it and literally it was a cringe moment that kept coming back to me for weeks. I never imagined that he like you could have still been thinking about it for that kind of time period .

I tend to use avoidance strategies instead of coming out and saying 'I can't shake your hand' because I dont want to, but I also don't want to have to say it as I feel really embarassed and uncomfortable. So I will be the one keeping gloves on, holding lots of files etc.

Posie - Kissing male colleagues... I wish! Sigh... I have a lot of very attractive male colleagues, sadly most are very married too... Typically some like to 'forget' they're married but i wouldn't go there.
Erm, sorry, slightly off topic!

Littleducks - if he was a sensible, rational guy he probably didn't think your refusal to shake hands was odd, given your explaination.
He would only have been bothered if he was insecure about his looks OR his position in the workplace.. or if he had major prejudices against certain religious beliefs.
But those would be his issues for him to deal with. You ideally shouldn't feel embarrassed to explain your refusal to shake hands with a man, if you are proud of your culture & religion. They are part of you.
So please don't 'cringe' next time - being nice but assertive instead of going red & hiding behind files will get you more respect - colleagues & managers should be impressed to see you cope politely, confidently & diplomatically with a potentially awkward situation.

Maybe practice at home.
Next time a man tries to shake hands, give a big smile & say; 'it's very good to meet you; but i should say that due to my religion, i'm not allowed to shake hands with men who aren't family.. However, i would like to offer you a cup of tea or coffee.. how was your journey?' etc. Just be friendly, pleasant & confident - but never apologise for who you are :-)
Good luck.

Kirsty, in Algeria you'd normally kiss cheeks not just shake hands lol. But there those who don't do either. The stricter they are the less handshaking/kissing. But varying levels of strictness amongst the population.

Have never Heard about Muslim women shaving heads and wearing a wig? Was interested to find out about the ultra orthodox Jewish though. I see them in Stamford hill and they are so mysterious, I always wondered. Expulsions the uniform auburn bob though, I thought lots of ladies were going to the same hairdresser

YANBU, because the only man I know who is sufficiently orthodox in his religious practice not to shake hands with women deals with it, in secular contexts, by not shaking hands with anyone. (He and I are not the same religion, but we worked together for years and are good friends, so had a lot of conversations about matters religious.) He knows perfectly well that it's likely to be read as insulting.