to be proud of being a white english muslim?

[MoveBiatchGetOutTheWay]

Yes it sounds weird. Point is, some people (muslim and non muslim) are of the opinion you cannot possibly identify as this, but I love our culture and Im enjoying passing it down to my ds (in the form of afternoon tea and gentlemanly manners ;) )

I love my religion, and boy do I love my culture :)

I do wonder if poverty and the lack of education draws people into Islam. (Not saying that you have to be thick and poor to be Muslim btw) But worldwide religion is most destructive where it can exert the most control, ie in poverty.

I think it is true that any religion tends to be have more active believers in very poor areas. This is because it can offer comfort, a belief in the afterlife and things getting better and often real practical support as well.

What bugs me is why Muslims ALWAYS talk about being Muslim.

Agree posie totally

BBQJuly- which translation are you using?

Bijou- some examples, please?

Of course control is easier over the poor, but again this is not an Islamic or even religious thing. The people of North Korea are possibly the poorest and most controlled people on earth but it is not religion that keeps them that way. The same can be said of China.

I find it sad that despite our freedoms and education, we seem to have learnt little. The most useful tool for those who wish to control us is our willingness to believe that entire groups of people can be assigned a label and demonized for it.

If we want to truly bring about change in terms of how women are treated, then attacking their religion isn't the way to do it. Supporting their own fight is. And make no mistake, they are fighting and using their religious texts in the fight. Attacking their beliefs will just lead to them feeling defensive at best and isolated at worst.

But the difference between China, North Korea and Islam is that women, with apparent freedoms, are choosing Islam. Noone is forcing them, although I bet my last tenner that no happy, fulfilled person chooses any religion to become absorbed in. I genuinely don't understand a woman who has freedom choosing a religion which reduces it.

thebody my close muslim friend was at the twin towers on 9/11 (he worked there) , some years later non-muslims gathered to protest a community centre with a mosque and gym in it which was blocks away from ground zero. some were saying that all muslims are terrorists - disgusting

In UK a UK national muslim was tortured in guantanamo bay despite no guilt proven

Women and girls are spat at and houses and mosques are set fire to in the West and that's because they dared to be muslim. Ladies scarves get pulled off their heads by English youth.

Talking of acid, in the UK there are acid attacks by non-muslim men on non-muslim women purely because the woman wants to leave the man.

Lovely peaceful West?

My point is that you can find awful things everywhere. It is quite convenient picking on things bad with one group and ignoring everything else. By the way i love UK and i love islam. I just want to point out that you cannot sit there pointing your finger at all muslims when you know that the same things happen in your own group, but it is ignored.

Just look at the stats for domestic violence in UK and it is pretty disgraceful. And yet all you can see is how badly muslim women are treated in 'muslim countries' but you fail to see impact of culture and men and instead decide to blame islam.

Yeah be proud but there's no point in making a big deal out of it. We're all people and we should be unified.

Surely it is then better to seek understanding and work from there than condemn it outright. Which I don't think furthers the cause of women's rights or indeed human rights in general.

Religious texts can be used to encourage hatred and violence, they can also be used to encourage tolerance and love. Just look at Christianity. The Christian West has used scriptures to justify the most appalling violence. It has also used scripture to condemn and change such behaviour. Or, since we are talking about Islam you can look at Islamic Spain which was a very tolerant society for its time.

The thing is, the vast majority of people are nice. They all love their children and their parents. They all want to live a peaceful existence, bring up their kids in a stable environment and put food on the table and a roof over their heads. This is true whether you have a religion or not. In order to make people abandon these things (home), it is necessary to make them believe that their children, freedoms and way of life is threatened by an easily identifiable enemy.

At the minute, the puppet masters of the Islamic world use the Palestine issue, Iraq, Afganistan, what happened in the Balkans in the 90's and colonialism to do this. However I don't think they are seeking full scale war or indeed world domination (although extremists regardless of flavor will always want this). They use fear of the enemy to control their own population.

This is not just happening in the Muslim world. Look at how Anti-terror and Homeland Security legislation is being used against UK and USA citizens who protest.

It is a fact, Religions today no longer serve the purpose for which they came into existence. The very basic theme of each religion was to teach, how to love each other and bring us closer to ourselves and to God. Today the opposite is happening, Religions are not uniting but dividing us. Forget the differences from religion to religion, each now has so many divisions. The biggest problem Religions are bringing in is Fundamentalism and in-tolerance, giving birth to Fanatics, who are ready to destroy our freedom, just in the name of religion.

It is about time, to rectify our vision, rectify our way of life, and mould them to what the various religions originally desired. Humanity is the religion which all religions preach, so why not follow it as such

Seeker I lived in the Middle East literally every Muslim I met would ask if I was a ?believer? when I said no they would say that I would go to hell and so would my children unless I converted.

I am Muslim. I don't talk about it. I don't get all preachy, it's for my family and I. I don't dress in shalwar khameez, burqa, niquab, hijab or djellaba. I dress conservatively but fashionably (sometimes!). I am not poor, I am not ill educated (post grad, professional). I quite like curry, but in a take away. If you request a halal meal in hospital-It's all curry. Yuk. I like spaghetti bolagnase, mac and cheese and a naice roast. I talk about sex with friends, I wear make up, I go out in the evenings with friends, I have the occasional glass of red (oops, must do better). I like the White Company, Hobbs NW3, Birkenstocks and Converse. I also pray sometimes (not the regulation 5 times, again, must do better), have an Islamic bank account, have no problem with homosexuality, Judaism or any other religion. I fast in Ramadan, have the odd cigarette, I speak, read and write some Arabic. I do not believe the woman's place is in the home unless she wants it to be, I find the killing of any human, whether bombing, capital punishment or otherwise immoral. I think the meaning of jihad is twisted out of all recognition to suit the political ideas of mad men. I agree with the theory oppression of women is to make weak mean feel powerful In Their own lunchtimes. I thank god for the good things in my life. I do nt confine my friends to one group. I believe in each to their own. I hope to complete Hajj one day. I do not engage in competitive Islam (er, I'd lose obv). I eat halal meat, I don't eat pork. Most people wouldn't know I was Muslim unless I spoke about it.

I see what OP is trying to say, it is just poorly expressed. Oh, and I converted, and think the term revert is a bit ridiculous, because I didn't even know Muslims existed until secondary school age.

In short, where I came from, where I am and where I am going to are not mutually exclusive. Glad I got that off my chest. Can't claim with hand on heart am not a 'nutjob' though

Defuse i couldnt give a shit about Islam or any religion tbh. The thing is though yes bastard men in all countries but in England they are actually held to account!!! Not so I 'Muslim countries' as its quite ok to beat the crap out of your wife isn't it? Sharia law ?

If that's what u think is ok then up to u !!! I want better for my dd and teach my Dcs to respect women.

Respect btw means freedom not restriction.

Oh and btw we have stats on domestic violence!! Does any Muslim
Country? Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Sudan etc, don't be a twat love.

Thebody, I have read and reread Defuse's post. Nowhere does she say that she thinks that domestic violence is ok.

thebody, sorry but domestic violence in Qatar is treated as a crime and Qatari men go to prison if they are found guilty. The family court also imposes restrictions on access to the children if they feel there is a risk. I'm certain of that, I have been through it several times with friends.

From www.wluml.org/node/1784

'Statistics on the number of women who suffer domestic violence, either by their husbands or other male relatives, are unavailable in Saudi Arabia, but many Saudi women insisted that things must change. The UN's Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women is observed around the world today.

"There is an abuse of women in our society just like any other society but it's not clear the size of this problem here," said Dr. Lubna Al-Ansari, associate professor of family and community medicine at King Saud University in Riyadh and a senior member of the National Society for Human Rights. "The society is collecting information on this issue and will discuss it from all perspectives and present its findings," she told Arab News.

"When a woman is beaten, she does not speak out because that brings shame to her family" even when she is admitted to hospital," the AFP news agency quoted psychiatrist Madeha Al-Ajroush as saying. She said she wants to see government policies introduced so that the court system and police can process cases of domestic violence and protect women.

Saudi women who are brave enough to file a complaint with police end up with no protection from their abusers unless their immediate families can step into the breach, she said. "We need at least an institution that would teach Saudi women how to utter the word: No," said one woman, who did not want to be named, with her own face bearing the physical scars of the abuse her husband meted out. "We are powerless. What are our rights? The man is always right," she added bitterly - anonymity her cloak of protection against the perceived shame to herself, her children and her extended family.

"Every time I was admitted to hospital, I refused to mention that I was beaten, because I do not want the police to know," not trusting them to keep her ordeal a secret. '

And from www.huffingtonpost.com/sabria-jawhar/saudis-in-denial-over-sco_b_312028.html

'...there is no established definition in Saudi Arabia of what constitutes domestic violence. Family members who perpetrate violence against their victims confuse guardianship and Islam with discipline. Even victims are often confused about whether their misery is a product of abuse or a form of discipline under Islam.'

www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154472.htm

Scroll down to Section 6 for a detailed description of women's lives in Saudi Arabia, where rape victims are prosecuted, note 'the lack of women's autonomy, freedom of movement, and economic independence; discriminatory practices surrounding divorce and child custody; the absence of a law criminalizing violence against women; and difficulties preventing women from escaping abusive environments.

And this:
'Sharia does not specify a minimum age for marriage but suggests girls may marry after reaching puberty. According to the Grand Mufti of the Kingdom, Abdulaziz Al al-Sheikh, girls as young as 10 years old may be married. Families sometimes arranged such marriages, principally in rural areas or often to settle family debts, without the consent of the girl. '

www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154471.htm on Qatar:

'The law criminalizes domestic violence and rape but does not address spousal rape. There were publicized cases of rape involving foreigners, but none were reported involving citizens. In December an Asian man was convicted of raping his daughter and was sentenced to life in prison. The penalty for rape is 10 years imprisonment, or 14 years if the victim is younger than 16 years old. If the perpetrator is the teacher, guardian, or caregiver of the victim, the penalty is life imprisonment. The government's ability to enforce the law against rape was limited due to underreporting by victims who feared social stigma.

There is no law criminalizing domestic violence. According to the NHRC, domestic violence may be prosecuted under the criminal law that provides a general prohibition against violence. According to the quasigovernmental Qatari Foundation for the Protection of Women and Children (QFPWC), domestic violence against women continued to be a problem. There were neither arrests nor convictions for family domestic violence among citizens publicized in the press, although there were reports of cases involving noncitizens. During the year 109 cases of domestic abuse against women were reported to the foundation. The QFPWC reported 10 cases of rape, eight cases against women, and two cases against children. The embassy of an Asian country reported that it received four complaints of rape from its citizens serving as domestic workers in Qatar. Three of the cases were settled out of court with the sponsor to avoid criminal investigation.

A 2007 Qatar University study found that 63 percent of 2,778 surveyed citizen and noncitizen female students reported they had been victims of physical abuse, with 52 reporting cases of "strong violence," such as rape, and 120 reporting sexual harassment. Approximately 50 women reported they had considered suicide because they were afraid of the repercussions if they notified authorities.'

I do actually bloody live here you know, I have lived here for years and I think I know more about it than a person who has Googled a few stats. The new family court, which I am involved in a work capacity deals with many, many cases every month. Everyone on MN is an expert

I normally avoid confrontations and arguments but I am going to defend my position on this.

Bijou, where in the Middle East? nobody has ever asked me that...

Me either, people always ask me where I come from and everyone has a brother/sister/uncle/cousin who is studying in Hastings and other such improbable places but nobody has ever overstepped the mark on religious issues. And, like i said, I DO actually live here, I have lived in Muslim countries for about 15 years and Qatar for nearly 10. The only religious crap I get is endless, endless recruitment and hellfire damnation lectures from the Evangelical Filipino community and believe me, nothing is spared.