to be proud of being a white english muslim?

[MoveBiatchGetOutTheWay]

Yes it sounds weird. Point is, some people (muslim and non muslim) are of the opinion you cannot possibly identify as this, but I love our culture and Im enjoying passing it down to my ds (in the form of afternoon tea and gentlemanly manners ;) )

I love my religion, and boy do I love my culture :)

Posie, it's a waste of time, if u do much as venture an opinion on any religion but especially Islam the you are brandished racist, intolerant and stupid.

It's such a shame that middle class white and Asian women rush to defend a culture and religion that controlls every aspect of a woman's life.

You see they are relatively safe here, note none of them are poor village girls in Pakistan.

I live in Birmingham and my parents live in Handsworth where I grew up so extremely multicultural area, I see burkas all of the time and simply feel great sympathy for the poor woman imprisoned in them. It's degrading, inhuman and cruel and all fashioned not by ant God but by men.

How...that's exactly the point isn't it? You don't know instantly what group everyone belongs to!!

However it is noted that in the groups that I see daily on my way home from school, white/black/Asian and mixed race girls in groups together, some white only, some Asian only, some Black only (this is most rare) but always ONLY Muslim girls in groups and never Muslim (visibly Muslim) girls in other groups.

I just want to be irreverent and say that every time I scroll past this thread title I think it says "white british muffin" and do a double take.

Posie, whats the difference between the Sikh wearing a turban and a Muslim covering her head?

See again, I see Muslim schoolgirls here walking with White, I assume non Muslim girls. You just sound very prejudiced. I can just imagine in days gone by you would have commented on those Jews, those blacks, those Irish, those catholics. There is a debate to be had about Islam, it can be criticised but it's the tone and feeling you use that raises my radar of bigot.

I disagree, to be identified as something doesn't make you separate from something else. If you want to be identified as a woman for example, it doesn't stop you being part of a community that includes men.

Wearing an abayah doesn't stop me being part of the community or promote segregation any more then someone wearing an African dress or a sari stops them being integrated. If someone is wearing a particular styke of sari you could identify them as belonging to a particular community, how is that tribalism?

For example on my school board of governors we have me, another Muslim that wear shalwar lamest and hijab, an African that wears tribal clothing, a Ukrainian Christian, as parent governors. Because we wear different dress doesn't mean we want to segregate from each other. We are friends.

As for Muslim girls walking home together, my daughters dont seem to have that issue but they are only young. My eight year old nieces last badly party no Muslims came and there were two black girls a white girl and a white boy. My other nieces all over twenty in university, all wearing abayah, I have been asking them to help me sell tickets for a Muslim event and they told me their friends are mostly non Muslims. So my experiences are very different from yours. I don't think you can extrapolate your experiences to whole of uk. Growing up, as a Hindu my mums best friend and our closest family friends were Muslim. My Sikh sisters first husband was a Gambian Muslim.

And I would disagree about the race bit. I would say a lot of Asian cultures, Muslim and non Muslim (me personally having experienced both) are racist. How many gujeratis do you see hanging around with Tamils? Or punjabis with telagus? Or Sri lankans with bengalis?

As for none of them are poor village girls from Pakistan, you do know we have family members who are? Who live in uk as well as Pakistan. And you do know it is very rare for a woman to cover in Pakistan?

I am so happy that every reasonable person (note: i am not singling out any particular affiliation) on this thread has defended a woman's right to chose - be it clothes, culture, religion etc.

This is what a truly civilised society does. It protects each other's way of life and accepts differences.

thebody and posie, your views ARE intolerant. You are all over the shop with whatever point it is that you are trying to make and it is very non-cohesive.

I would advise you to just LISTEN to what is being said and come to terms with the fact that we are living in a multicultural society.

It is NOT a shame that every reasonable person defends another's way of life, in fact it is commendable. Nobody here has said oppression is good, no one here has said women shouldn't have rights. But do not try to create more divisions - it is in bad taste.

You see they are relatively safe here, note none of them are poor village girls in Pakistan

'they' are relatively safe here...They again! You cannot break away from the stereotypes in your mind can you!

I see burkas all of the time and simply feel great sympathy for the poor woman imprisoned in them. It's degrading, inhuman and cruel and all fashioned not by ant God but by men

I know many poor village girls from Pakistan and you would be amazed how some of them (note-not all) broke free from the shackles of culture and abandoned cultural practices and embraced religion and decided to wear a garment only to be pitied by people like you! You do not have a clue!

Keep your sympathy to yourself. We have no place for it! We, the women who choose this as a way of life ARE liberated but can clearly see the shackles of your mind that feels the need to insult defame and patronise by pretending to stand for women's liberation.

I live in a multi cultural society in Qatar. I am not Muslim, but I do feel loved and valued

I'm terribly sorry but I keep reading the title as

"white english muffin."

... and I have just seen that I am not the first. Sorry CaptainKirk.

yes you have already said that

Ok so me and posie r intolerant? How? I think we have both said on many occasions up to u how u live and dress but that's not for us??? Intolerant.??

u demand that we 'listen to what has been said' and we ' live in multi cultural society'? I do now and I grew up in Handsworth arguably the most multi cultural area in England? Wher r u???

thirdly I 'don't have a clue' about how girls live in pakistan, think that's what u rambled but not entirely sure???

I letter write for amnesty so u see I don't do papering over the religious cracks.

I have written to embassy's on behalf of women imprisoned in sudan for adultery, they are in threat if their lives and have no access to their children.

So save your outrage from us and actually belly up and help your fellow sisters, unless of course you are all fine in middle class land!!??

Also I a actually have no idea how we have 'insulted, defamed or patronised u'??? Is that your way of saying we disagree,, that's sinister???

You write for amnesty, i respect that.
You write to embassies, i respect that.
but you still don't know where to separate religion from culture. Yes, the boundaries become quite blurry sometimes, but to sit there and spout hatred for all religions and then make baseless remarks is quite another thing.

Religion does not make people do evil things - it is just people who do evil things. I have just been watching a documentary about the Norwegian massacre on TV and their PM said it is individuals responsible for crimes. He said that he (the PM) is not responsible for that crime even if he is male, white and from Oslo (like Breivik). Similarly, that is why I keep asking, what should we muslims be apologising about? I go back to your statement asking why its only the PM (UK) apologising and not ever the other way round. That ill-informed statement speaks volumes about what you think of the 'others' without so much as glancing at the injustices here at home and you do think that 'we' are better than 'them'.

Yes, I am middle class and live in a white majority area but why is that relevant?

I actually have spent quite a long time in Pakistan's villages looking at NGO's work, campaigning for education and health for women and looking at the plight of women in the villages. I was involved in incentives to give the women some control over their own lives - to earn a living. I campaigned and reached governmental level, including ministers and high commissioner with some aspects too. So yes, I saw with my own 2 eyes the women's struggles. I saw depth of despair, drug dependence, prostitution and injustice. I saw domestic violence, I saw gambling addictions ruining lives, I was involved in the planning of setting up women's refuges, which wasn't without it's taboos.
I also saw the fantastic work that NGOs do and that certain charitable foundations do.

Yes, there are huge issues in the 'muslim countries' but the women's 'muslim spring' will certainly not be all about the hijab or the niqab.

Whilst the social issues in Pakistan are very complex, I never found a single woman/girl to say that her clothing created any of her issues or that if she was to take off her garment, all would be fine!

So please do not assume that I am a woman caged by a man in a garment with no knowledge or 'hands on' experience of my 'fellow sisters' . Please do not assume that all covered women you see in handsworth or anywhere else are 'poor women imprisoned' and that they are feeling 'degraded and inhuman' - because this is patronising and insulting to a woman who has made this choice!

I do not think there is any point in carrying on talking to you as you clearly have no intention to understand. But please if you truly want women to be liberated and protect their rights then surely you should be protecting their right to choose their clothing and the right to follow their religion too! Give them the respect that they deserve and do not look down upon them for what they wear. It is just so.....un-amnesty international! This will be my last post on this. It is very sad when a member of amnesty international feels sorry for a woman who wants to wear clothes in a certain way!

I don't get why people are 'proud' of something that is an accident of birth. Obviously we all have the right to equality and no one should be belittled because of their origins, but to be proud of something you have no control over.

'Mum, Dad I'm a Welsh'

'Well done son, you've obviously worked hard at that.'

I am no more 'proud' of my national, ethnic or (lack of) religious identity than I am of being left handed or having a squint.

Things that give me active 'pride' are things I've achieved, like qualifications or a happy relationship.

Hownoobrooncoo Sun 15-Apr-12 14:56:57
See again, I see Muslim schoolgirls here walking with White, I assume non Muslim girls. You just sound very prejudiced. I can just imagine in days gone by you would have commented on those Jews, those blacks, those Irish, those catholics. There is a debate to be had about Islam, it can be criticised but it's the tone and feeling you use that raises my radar of bigot.

Well you can make stupid connections if you wishm but you would be wrong. It's the lack of integration and the belief system I have issues with not someone's colour or country of origin. I quite like people living here to want to be part of British society, not creating a separate sector within it.

Multicultural only exists when all cultures mix. Most cultures mix very well, but not all.

islam is not a culture? like you have punjabi culture which includes muslims and sikhs and hindus, or gujerati which includes hindus and sikhs, african cultures, say Kenyan which include muslim, tribal, evangelical christian....

Multiculturalism is very regional in the UK anyway.

my family and friends are different religions, ethnicities, nationalities. it is possible you know. unless you have preconceived ideas, like "they are different" "they are separating themselves" when actually by the very act os faying and thinking those statements, it is you who are seperating them.

I love this Imam, he speaks much much sense

Usedtobeyummy Which Imam would that be? I cannot find him on your link

Multiculturalism is very regional in the UK anyway.

I do agree with that Pendeen