to be proud of being a white english muslim?

[MoveBiatchGetOutTheWay]

Yes it sounds weird. Point is, some people (muslim and non muslim) are of the opinion you cannot possibly identify as this, but I love our culture and Im enjoying passing it down to my ds (in the form of afternoon tea and gentlemanly manners ;) )

I love my religion, and boy do I love my culture :)

Defuse, seriously women's rights in the west are

On a par with mainly Muslim countries???

Oh and I have a right to use profanities bad though it is I agree.

And as u say 'women are free to take off their clothes and be prostitutes' seriously how many British women are prostitutes.???

U sound like a 1930s 'guide to being a good wife and mother'

Truth is we in the west have fought long and hard fit out rights to be ourselves, not belonging to our fathers, brothers or husbands but free.

It's up to u guys to catch up.

Oh and btw I never read the dm how funny.

hmmm,

I didn't say on par with...i said problems exist in both places - do not pretend that muslim women are oppressed because of religion.

I did not say anything about women being free to be prostitutes - please let's get the facts right. That was another poster and you have completely misconstrued what the poster was saying.

How do I sound like the 1930's guide? Please back up your statements with facts.

WOW! 'we in the west' - 'you guys catch up'!! Lovely statements
Ignorant statements
Do not be patronising and make this about 'us' and 'them' - it stinks and is sinister! It does sound very DM even though you claim not to read it - and i believe you.

Isn't it great how the muslim woman is never supposed to take on the name of her husband - simply because she is not his property.

I too hope that muslim women have their spring and tell every person male or female to mind their own business and let them observe their religion as they wish!

Lot of rubbish being spouted. I have reservations about Islam but much of that is cultural though the two seem so intertwined it's hard to really separate them. But, all this about the poor women, being restricted, covered up etc... So much hipocracy. Tbh I prefer the way some Muslim women dress where being pretty and sexy is not the be all and end all. Restricted? try looking at the poor fools who wear ridiculous shoes, caked in makeup, who think the hooker/glamour girk look is the way to go while we all get blitzed out of our faces before we act so superior and criticise other women who choose differently. Think we have enough problems to deal with within our own culture before throwing too many stones. Yes we women are so free we will hobble our selves and wear restrictive, uncomfortable clothing to attract attention, but that's all free will yadda, yadda. Some jobs that still require shirts, make-up, heels - such freedom yadda, yadda!

Or skirts even and I don't even have the excuse of being pickled!

Which jobs require skirts, make-up and heels?

I don't think being superstitious and having an imaginary friend is anything to be proud of. Whether the imaginary friend is Jesus, Allah, Ceridwen or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If it makes you happy to do so, as long as you can do so without bothering other people with it, go ahead and enjoy. But it's no more a reason for pride than taking four sugars in your tea, or liking to play Scrabble.

It's very hard to separate the oppression of many Muslim women when the difference is the religion, it does give licence to a whole host of misogyny. Women are objects that need covering and only revealed to her husband, this has to seep into how women are viewed.

Mine! Halfpastwine

Not a requirement, but good form, apparently.

www.sahca.org.uk/assets/images/crown%20court%20etiquette%20cribsheet.pdf

I don't really have a problem with the idea of religion but I do have a problem with it being male dominated. As to oppressed Muslim women having to cover up, I actually think it could be more liberating in some way to cover up more and it not be all about appearance. I once had a job where male and female were covered up head to toe, exactly the same, only eyes were visible and make-up wasn't allowed - it actually was quite liberating to take looks, clothes, hair, make-up out of the equation. And no I'm not keen on face coverings that some Muslim women wear but don't understand the hoohaar about those wearing salwar kemeeze type clothing and a scarf - TBH rather see that than the sights that were on display at the Grand National and in many town centres on a Saturday night, what's liberating about that, aren't they just as brainwashed to look alluring and sexy? Some seem to be equating liberation as being able to walk down the street in next to nothing but then critising when some women choose to cover in a more modest way - don't quite understand your thinking, surely they should be free to dress how they please either way. And ,I don't agree with countries that enforce Islam on it's subjects and make them follow islamic based rules whether they want to or not. I'm changing my view on Islam all the time, it is contentious at times and confusing like many religions. Obviously I'd prefer everyone to have a choice in what they choose to do.

Freedom to dress is not the same as religious uniform is it? I dress how I please, not revealing, pretty modest but it's not in any book what I wear.

Muslim women don't all dress the same. And the way many young girls dress and many young boys, they could as well be wearing a uniform. You don't have a lot of time for Muslims, i get it.

Defuse,,, 'my views stink and are sinister'??

Wow all through my posts I stress that I don't understand anyone of sense following ' religious teachings' of long dead men. And it's always men.

I don't particularly care what your eat wear, or do but please don't pretend that countries that are undemocratic look after their people's human rights.

I find it very 'sinister'that honour killings are rife in Afghanistan. Turkey and many Muslim countries, now sure men kill women here but it's considered A CRIME and investigated

I accept that some women 'want' to cover up but please don't argue that many more around the world do not but have no choice.

It's too easy for us to accept injustice around the world and hateful violence to women because we are afraid of being accused of being some how anti musli
Or racist?? Note I criticised far right Christian behaviour as well.

Criticising someone who disagrees with u as
'sinister' is exactly what happens in undemocratic societies!!

Hownoo, what I don't have time for is hypocrisy, mysogonistic views and control of women,, Christisnity, Islam, Judaism, all guilty as charged.

The prescriptive hijab is pretty uniform, the long black flowing robes are the same and the burka is identical.

I have huge issues with Islam and those that control others and commit terrible acts in the name of Islam, I also find the fact that the threat of violence prevents many people from speaking out.

In my ds's class when a Sikh homework was set they all had to complete it except the Muslim... ffs.

Posie - Most Muslim women I know wear a range from skinny jeans to pretty bright coloured loose clothing as in salwar kemeeze and bright coloured scarfs. Don't see many who wear they flowing black robes and never seen a burhka. I real worry about how Muslims are being targeted and spoken of as the new bogeymen. I have reservations about Islam but want to learn more about it and not everything I hear or see is negative. I'm thankful, however that I live in a country that allows people freedom of choice.

thebody i accept that you have issues with all religions, but your posts are increasingly pointing a finger at an entire group and turning it into 'us' and 'them' which in itself is hugely divisive and unpleasant.

You mention honour killings - 'them' there don't investigate, 'us' here, we put them behind bars. The us and them is implying that 'we' are better than 'them', otherwise known as a superiority complex!

Are you arguing about religion or culture? Nowhere does my religion justify honour killings.

At no point did I say that non-democratic countries look after their people's human rights. So what are you talking about?

If you were truly out there protecting women's right and women's liberation, then you would never have made half the narrow-minded statements that you have done in this thread. You have over-generalised and the women that you are claiming that you want protected due to the injustices that they have suffered would also resent you for targeting the wrong issue as the cause! You don't see it, but you are attacking them and not protecting anybody!

I did not call your views sinister because you disagreed with me, but I called the 'us' and 'them' philosophy highly sinister! You pointed out that PM apologised for slave trade (which he had not) then you adopt an 'us' and 'them' stance (very divisive, be it on the grounds of race, sex, religion, culture etc)

Then you question why apologies are a one-way thing (despite there having been no apology!).

All throughout you have implied that 'we' in the west are so tolerant and enlightened and 'them' muslims (or religion followers) are all oppressors and undemocratic. Your arguments are flawed and you are blaming the wrong things. It is just ignorance that is showing through. I am certainly not undemocratic in saying based on what you have so far said in this thread, that your knowledge is extremely basic on the real issues affecting women in 'muslim' countries and your tolerance of religions is quite low even for followers in this country. That is fine by me - we don't seek your approval.

I don't deny that you probably 'mean well', but all I can say to you is that you have no grasp of the real issues affecting women in 'muslim countries' today and deny it all you like, you DO have an issue with how I choose to live my life - and this is you who likes to think of yourself as tolerant, free and a member of the civilised world's democratic society.

Well perhaps we have a particularly poor Muslim where I live, lots covered in black robes. And a hijab is a hijab. I really wouldn't want to see more visible religious attire all over this country.

hebody Sat 14-Apr-12 22:36:19
Defuse, seriously women's rights in the west are

On a par with mainly Muslim countries???

Oh and I have a right to use profanities bad though it is I agree.

And as u say 'women are free to take off their clothes and be prostitutes' seriously how many British women are prostitutes.???

my point wasnt british woman are prostitutes, that would after all be calling myself and my daughters prostitutes, my point was freedom doesnt equal respect.

but what if muslim women want to be indentified as muslim women?
by choosing to dress a certain way they know they will be, and i am sure for many this is one of the contributing factors to wearing jilbbab.

is it different from dressing in a way that would signify you as part of any other sub culture of this society?

dont come to east either. please.

People wanting to be identified as something or another are wanting segregation, it's tribal and promotes a segregated UK. You only have to grace any playground to see it, hell anywhere. Muslim girls walking home from school together, some schools round here have policies to protect cohension and integration. I don't see the same divisions between Sikhs, Hindus or between races, but strict religions (Islam I think is one) do have this over riding separatist notion.

Posie. - do you feel the same when you see what you assume to be non Muslim girls walking home together or say non Muslim mums standing in their little groups in the playground. Or do you only notice when the people seem to be different from you.